GUN WWII era ammo

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Possum Stomper, Oct 4, 2003.

  1. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    so i am researching all the guns used in WWII and before, stuff like the BAR, Bren, Garand, Kar98, Enfield and what not

    these guns all have roughly the same sized ammo, that being around .30cal
    so my question is this:
    Was any one kind significantly better than the other?
    like was one rifle/ammo combination more accurate, powerful, easier to shoot etc.

    example:
    Kar98 = 7.92x57mm
    Springfield and Garand = 7.62x63mm
    Enfield = 7.7x56mm
    Mosin-Nagant = 7.62x54mm

    :dunno:
    or is this a stupid question because they all kill exceptionally well?
     
  2. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    btw the Arsenal has been a bit dry lately so i thought this might spark some debate :wiggle:
     
  3. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    the japs used 7.7 jap also. in addition to lots of other calibers.
     
  4. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    the japs used all kinds of diferent calibers, which really didn't help them at all
    alot of their guns sucked too
     
  5. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    my thinking is that the .30-06, being a large round with the most powder behind it, is ostensibly the best but i don't know much about ballistics

    does the gas operation in the garand produce significantly less pressure than in the bolt action rilfes?
     
  6. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    yes, as it will in any semi-auto. a portion of gas that would otherwise build pressure and further increase the muzzle velocity of the round is escaping into the operating mechanism of the rifle. this also serves to reduce some of that felt recoil that the .30-06 has in a bolt action.

    as far as terminal ballistics comparisons between those rounds, i've never seen too much on anything other than 7.62 NATO. i do know that the round used in both the M80 (7.62 NATO) and .30-06 standard issue, when propelled at velocities past 3000 fps would yaw like the 5.56 NATO when propelled at velocities above 2700 fps.

    now, whether any of those rounds ever reached such velocities is doubtful, so more than likely, the terminal ballistics are going to depend on their variations in the small amount of yawing that they do, and the expansion/deformation that occurs during that.

    the variations in deformation will be dependent on the jacket's composition and wall thickness, the velocity, and amount of yaw. mostly, i'd imagine that all of those rounds will punch holes through people with a maximum of a half rotation by the time the round exits the body, barring contact with bone, lungs, or other non-flesh objects. the air in the lungs will not make the round perform the same way as the fluid-filled cavities and organs in the lower torso will, but the ribs and other bones near the lungs will shatter and disperse like shrapnel and still do some gruesome damage.

    also, the hydraulic shock created by those rounds may be larger than the current smaller rounds, and would thus create a larger temporary wound cavity. this doesn't do much ordinarily, but you might see some rupturing of fluid-filled organs. the hydraulic shock wave won't propogate in the lungs. i would imagine that the russian ammo would have a lot of steel in the jacket, and thus wouldn't deform nearly as much as the british .303 or US .30-06, which used more copper as far as i know.
     
  7. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    yeah that is what i thought

    i have heard some about the significant kick of the .30-06, and given the sheer size of the round i believe all that i have heard

    makes me wonder how those guys could shoot and shoot and shoot all day long
    tip my hat to them:cool:
     
  8. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    you have to understand that in combat, contrary to what you see in the movies, rounds are not just thrown at the target constantly. especially with a bolt action. and it's not like they sat there and shot one round every 15 seconds for 8 hours straight. there wouldn't have been much ammo to go around if they had habits like that. and i'm sure they had some sore shoulders at the ends of a few days.
     
  9. -RUNNR

    -RUNNR Insanely truthful

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    No shit. My Mauser (8mm) kills my shoulder when the day is done...
     
  10. nvmicok

    nvmicok Guest

    Mauser 7.92mm or mauser 8mm is a large round; larger than a 30 cal. i have some original ww2 8mm rounds marked SS-Das Reich and SS-totenkopf, and most of the ammo i shoot with my k98k and mp 40 are ww2 surplus. :bigthumb:

    mauser 8mm > 30 cal
     
  11. nvmicok

    nvmicok Guest

    tell me about it, after 40 or so rounds i get so tense waiting for the gun to kick and my shoulder is done
     
  12. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    okay, today i learned that the two types of M2 ball (.30-06) were an AP and a standard ball round. from what i understand, the AP was more prevalent. and, in addition, it probably didn't go much faster, if any, than the current M80 (.308) because while the bullet was the same caliber, it was longer and heavier than a lead-core .308 bullet. so, the added weight, even with the larger powder load, probably kept it around the same 2400 fps that the M80 does. as far as the length, all i can see that doing is needing more twist to the rifling to stabilize.
     
  13. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    please esplain:)
     
  14. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    i did know that the AP round was more prevalent, got penetration?
     
  15. mrbill

    mrbill New Member

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    not sure if this is even relevant(considering my lack of info), but a buddy of mine once showed me a ballistics table that proved the 30-06 delivered more engergy on target at long range than the .308. (this chart was from a handloading guide, so i don't remember what grains of powder/bullet were used, but in each instance, the 30-06 was the winner). like i said, i'm not sure if this tidbit of info swimming around my brain even matters to you, but i figured i'd offer it up in the hopes of making a meaningful contribution to this great forum.
     
  16. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    didn't the arisakas fire a smaller and significantly less powerful round though? 6.5mm by something, forget the length exactly, but all the other bolt action rilfes fired much bigger rounds, including the later jap rifle which used a 7.7mm round
     
  17. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    and why did only the US, USSR, and Germany develop semi auto rifles
    M1 Garand
    SVT38/40
    K43
    semi would be better than a bolt any day for most instances
     
  18. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    anyone know anythign about the K43?
    how good it was, reliable, what not....
     
  19. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    any opinions on the best rifle of the war?
     
  20. Trouser Trout

    Trouser Trout OT Supporter

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    I picked up a Nagant a while ago at a local gun show....lots of fun to shoot, cheap, and accurate....if you like open sights.
     
  21. DK

    DK New Member

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    well, i think that award goes to the garand. it was introduced prior to the k43 and from what i hear it was as reliable as the other countries' bolt action rifles.


    as for the most feared infantry weapon of ww2 i think that award goes to the MG42 (the hitler zipper).
     
  22. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    yes, the ability to spit rounds out at a rate of 20 a second is indeed scary, they were accurate too :eek3:

    the garand was a very good rifle but it did have some flaws that other semi autos didn't, like the inability to reload a half spent clip, and the distinctive and loud ping it made while ejecting said clip i am sure made for a few compromising situations

    it did offer incredible reliabilty, power, accuracy, and most importantly volume of fire that no other rifle squad could :USA#1:
     
  23. DK

    DK New Member

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    agreed, possum. however, had the stg come into mass production, it would have outclassed the garand in most aspects.
     
  24. Possum Stomper

    Possum Stomper The Great Bird of the Galaxy

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    oh yeah, forgot about that one :doh:

    had it been introduced earlier it would have replaced every single rifle and smg in the Whermacht, or so they say, later provided a basis for the AK47:eek3:

    seems like the germans wree plaugued with problems like this - ala Me262, V2 rocket, etc

    kinda scary:ugh:
     
  25. taco

    taco Guest

    Well I am going hunting with a mosin-nagant tomorrow and hopefully I will be able to give you a report on the killing power it has.
     

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