FRK woah. becoming ethical sluts.

Discussion in 'Vaginarium' started by JohnJohnJohnson, Apr 4, 2009.

  1. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    Emily and I are entering a more practical, less theoretical phase of seeing other people.

    (Backstory: my lover, Emily, and I do not have a closed relationship.)

    At about the same time, two things happened.

    A friend came into my life, and I've been getting back into pick-up with him - that is, learning the art of seducing women.

    Meanwhile, Emily has gone down on a guy we got to know personally at a party somewhere.

    It's going to be a very interesting experience.

    To help get our bearings, Emily and I have begun taking notes from a book called The Ethical Slut.

    I cannot strongly enough recommend this book. Even if you are a normal monogamous mainstream sort of homo sapiens sapiens, it's worth reading because it is coming from people with unique experience.

    In the same breath, I cannot strongly enough condemn the first edition. If you buy this book, get the SECOND edition, NOT the first. Some decade+ elapsed between the two editions, and to put it bluntly, the authors only learned how to write some time during that decade.

    I wanted to share with you guys some of the situation since it's all fascinating and new and scary and yet wonderful and empowering.

    Yes, I'm a male and I used the word, "empowering." Suck it.

    But first...

    <<<rant begin>>>

    One tragic phenomenon in my life is that the people closest to me are not only unhelpful in my aspirations with Emily but actually a bit of a hindrance, sometimes going as far as using vitriolic language in their attempts to persuade me that a closed relationship is the one and only reasonable choice.

    I could ignore it but I feel like unspoken words are the death of many a friendship. So I have carefully drawn a couple of my close peeps through the logical steps that go into Emily's and my decision, attempting to explain why it made sense for the two of us.

    Eventually (after they began to get it), it became clear that they were projecting their own insecurities about their partners fucking other people onto our situation.

    One friend, in particular, let's call her Jane, attempted to prove to me the error of my ways by eliciting jealousy in me.

    Isn't that fucked up?? Jane kept talking about Emily having someone else's cock in her mouth in a blatant attempt to make me insecure.

    As if making me insecure would prove something about the virtues of monogamy........ :madfawk:

    I explained with the patience of a monk, if I do say so myself, all the reasons that went into our choice of lifestyle, over and over again. Eventually she got it... and then promptly started talking about her own relationship insecurities.

    Go. Figure.

    <<</rant>>>

    Ahem.

    I don't know any lovers who are not in closed relationships. I'm thinking of attending a get-to-know-polyamorous-people event here in the city with Emily to ameliorate that situation.

    I would be interested in talking to anyone here as well, though, if you want to share.

    :wavey:

    Maybe I will post some more thoughts here later. Thanks for listening.
     
  2. T-R-T

    T-R-T New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    5,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Insecurities aside, what about STDs? Aren't you worried about that?
     
  3. Drunken Karnie Midget

    Drunken Karnie Midget In Yeo We Trust, All Others Pay Cash OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    39,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Dirty Canada
    All the other threads about swinging, etc, in this forum, and you only post that here? :ugh:

    Condoms = win.

    oh, the ironing...
     
  4. xinster

    xinster New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Messages:
    4,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    UIUC
    I've been in an open relationship with my gf for a few months now. I'm only 19. It's hard, jealousy is still there, moreso on her part, but definitely mine too. For me it's more of an insecurity / ego thing. I can deal with her going down and fucking other guys, but i worry that she will fuck someone who's better in the sack than I am. This worry is compounded by the fact that her ideal man is blonde hair blue eyes, 6'0", jacked, ripped muscle, with around 7 inches of hard cock.

    None of which I am.
     
  5. Bubba Atlantis

    Bubba Atlantis New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,903
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Okay, I had to reread this :mamoru: I thought you first said you could not recommend this book. I was like WTF?? Everyone in the poly community, and outside as you noted, talk highly of this book. Sadly I rarely read for pleasure anymore (because of school) but this is one I made time to read not only once but twice. I have yet to read the second edition. I have heard some great updates over the original.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2009
  6. Bubba Atlantis

    Bubba Atlantis New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,903
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    It is very likely that she will...especially with you being only 19. However, that really doesn't mean anything. Your partner does not stay with you or love you because of the sex. Yes that is a part of it, but there is so much more to it. There will be things that a secondary partner does better (or at all) than a primary. Nothing wrong with that. Let's be serious though, if you are playing with someone else, do you want that person to be just like your primary partner or would you prefer something different? I suspect different. Therefore, you should expect the same for your partner....and be happy if they do find that.

    Now, I am not saying that is easy. Far from it actually. Lovely and I both have secondary partners and have for a little while now and there are still problems. I know people who have been in multiple relationships for years and years and have problems. It is part of the territory. The key is how you deal with that and how you understand it; which is where The Ethical Slut comes in.
     
  7. ldaggerl

    ldaggerl New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    924
    Likes Received:
    0
    All comes down to life style choices, if your friends don't get it then fuck them. I differ from you, I couldn't do the whole seeing other people thing(I've tried, my ex when we were on the rocks but still in love tried seeing other people. Me being the dog I can humped every piece of ass. She had sex with one guy. Still never made me feel better even after she told me embarrassing things about him.). But if it makes you happy and it works for you then who's to tell you different?
     
  8. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    yes, of course. the practical implementation requires many considerations, including the risk of STD's and the risk of pregnancy. anyone who is sexually active has to make choices about those risks.
     
  9. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    What sort of problems have come up?

    I imagine that is inevitable.

    What do you tell people your reasons are for not having a more traditional relationship? What are your reasons?

    We are on our way out to go running so I'm just going to dump questions and escape ;)

    I will be back later.
     
  10. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    "Any man who can turn on my wife is a friend of mine," is a one-liner I've used on one occasion as an attempt to summarize things.
     
  11. xinster

    xinster New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Messages:
    4,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    UIUC
    catchy, but my gf is turned on by anything with muscles, blonde hair, or a big cock
     
  12. T-R-T

    T-R-T New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2004
    Messages:
    5,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    Condoms don't protect against all STDs. I'm sure his partner didn't use a condom when she went down on the other guy.


    Where is the irony?
     
  13. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    well i'd have a lot of friends in your position then :o
     
  14. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    let's argue about that some other time. yes it is somthing we have considered and made a decision about. not trying to put you down. of course what you are saying is one real concern. in our case we are going with condoms as sufficient, with regular testing. you may disagree.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2009
  15. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    Thank you for the supportive thought. Always appreciated. What the hell is in your AV??? Not to derail my own thread..
     
  16. Drunken Karnie Midget

    Drunken Karnie Midget In Yeo We Trust, All Others Pay Cash OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    39,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Dirty Canada
    He mentions individuals projecting their insecurities upon him, and that's exactly where your post came from, or rather seemed to come from.

    Anyone who is sexually active needs to worry about STDs, monogamous or otherwise. Those risks don't just apply to those who chose to have sexual relations with multiple partners. You seemed to make the assumption that he screens his partners less than you do, simply because he chooses a more liberal sex life. In many cases, the opposite is true: Look at all the threads in here about Polygamy. In every case, all prospective pairings are heavily screened, rather than just the casual "wanna come back to my place" pick up line at the bar.
     
  17. Lovely Atlantis

    Lovely Atlantis Luscious Lovely Lady!

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    1,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Good for you JJJ! I'm glad to hear you're doing what is best for you and your partner and not letting others bring you down. As Bubba said, it won't always be easy... but it's still worth it.

    I'd be interested to hear more about the differences between the first and second editions of the Ethical Slut. (side note- I actually started a thread about this on fetlife trying to get people to compare the two... so far no luck really).

    Also, your last comment about wanting to meet more poly people- I would say that's a good idea for sure. Then you'll have like-minded people who can support you when you need it. Your monogomous friends might not be so understanding when you have poly related problems... they'll probably just throw it back in your face "see that's what happens when you fuck around with multiple people!". I'd suggest joining fetlife if you haven't already. There are groups on there for poly people and you might be able to find some locals.
     
  18. RougeOgre

    RougeOgre FS Librarian and MOD

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    4,945
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Frozen Bowels of HELL
    Bubba & I are kind of each other's support on this subject. He is free to share things I have discussed with him (without names, of course).

    Mostly, it is things like: Not getting equal time, jealously or schedule co-ordination. Feel free to PM more specific questions if you do not want to do an open share :wavey:
     
  19. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    @lildev I like that. I'm a little confused by the third cherry. Mine is a stock photo from Google image search. I think you win this round.

    Anyhoo, thread update, Emily and I are going to a party next weekend with a lot of attractive people. I'm very excited, 'I feel like we have found a stable, reliable way of injecting good quality weirdness into our lives.
     
  20. Yail Bloor

    Yail Bloor OT Supporter

    Joined:
    May 5, 2002
    Messages:
    57,467
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    the streets
    seconded
     
  21. Bubba Atlantis

    Bubba Atlantis New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,903
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    :wavey: Indeed we are. Speaking of which :) glad to hear your weekend away went well :naughty:

    Hmmm, what sort of problems? Rules get broken from time to time. Most of the time it is by accident: not being clear as to what the rules are. Other times it is direct ignoring of rules; which can be very difficult to deal with as trust is vital to polyamory.

    There is also speeds at which things go at. You are going to have situations where you thought, ahead of time, that you were okay with, only to realize later (or during) that you are actually NOT okay with stuff.

    Problems arise when you are not vocal about your needs.

    As Rouge pointed out time is a key point of contention. This can be someone getting too much time or not enough. To use a personal story, my girlfriend lives about 4 hours away (2 hour ferry, 1 of commute either side). Conversely, Lovely's boyfriend lives two towns over (which is only half an hour :p). Therefore, she gets to see him more often than I get to see my partner. Moreover, she can go over on a weeknight or just for one night. However, in my situation, it needs to be planned well in advance and it will be the entire weekend. Therefore it can create some issues of envy regarding time being able to be spent with the other partner.

    I am more than willing as well to share things privately. One of the things that Rouge and I have talked about privately is that there is a misconception on FS regarding these types of relationships. There are threads about it and many of us talk about our relationships, but we do not talk about the problems. Why? Most are private and therefore it is not appropriate to share them in an open forum. Obviously privacy is important but it does create an illusion that everything is just happy times. That is far from the case. You have problems in any relationship. Now try balancing more than one and ensuring that everyone's needs are met. There are constant issues that arise, however, you just continue to work at it like any relationship.

    I am very happy in my situation...VERY :). I wouldn't want to go back. I feel no less secure in my primary relationship but instead more loved as I have two special women in my life. I have learned so much about myself through this experience. Further, although I have considered myself very mature, I have matured a lot in the relationship aspect. I would argue that relationship wise I was/am fairly immature, however, I have had to improve that very much with multiple relationships. Having to do so has made me a much better person.


    As for what we tell other people, we are back and forth about that one. Personally, I have little problem with telling others. Lovely is similar. We essentially work on a need to know basis. We do not hide our relationships, but we do not openly talk about them with people. Friends (and even coworkers really) know that I go out of town regular to visit my girlfriend (she is not referred to as such). Lovely informs her friends that she is going out for dinner with her secondary. My mother knows of our situation and has met my secondary partner. Lovely has gone to her secondary's mother's home for dinner. Lovely's family will never know of things, but most of mine will. My sister does not know yet, but I am sure she will be informed at some point. I'm not embarassed or ashamed of either of my partners, nor my choice, so therefore I feel no need to hide it. The only reason it is partly hidden is for the obvious reason that some others do not accept it.

    Now, what are my reasons for being poly? I like it :dunno: Actually I firmly believe that you will not find everything you need/want in one person. Both my girlfriend and my wife fulfill different needs for me. They differ very much in their interests and personalities. I will note however, that they are in the correct order. Lovely is rightfully my wife and my girlfriend is rightly my girlfriend. They should never be reversed: Lovely is perfect for me and the gf and I would not be able to co-exist regularly. I know Rouge will say the same thing. She has mentioned that she loves the bf and he is great, but she would not be able to be in a regular relationship with him.

    Hmmm, any other reasons? Honestly, I think because Lovely and I got together so young that has played a role. Mind you, we have never really been monogamous the entire time we have been together. Right from the beginning we played with a close friend of hers. Therefore, I think there is a natural component to things: you are naturally poly. It is a bit of a stretch, but I think similar to being gay or straight...you are either monogamous or not. I would fall into the latter category. It does not mean that I could not be monogamous, but I prefer being poly. Mind you, it depends on what you call monogamous. Most of my friends are female and I have always flirted with all of them. Some people go to extremes and say monogamy is ignoring all other people of the sex of your partner. Meh, not for me EVER. I would not be able to do that. I could have sex with just one person that is for sure and be very happy.

    Hmmm, actually thinking about that more. I should not that sex has very little to do with being poly for me. Sure the sexual stuff is nice and an important part of things, but I would not identify that as a reason for me being poly.

    Okay, this is getting long and I am rambling.

    Feel free to ask away though :)
     
  22. razi

    razi New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2007
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    0
    One of the problems I found was that at times I would be ok with something consciously, but subconsciously it still bothered me. Usually this comes out in different ways, even if it's a general on-edge feeling. Mine was mild depression. It took a while to get over. I'm not on good terms with my girl's secondary, and I feel the situation would be easier if I was. He gets jealous, and knows it. It's awkward. It has a limited life though, because the fiance is moving up here at the end of the month. I can't wait.

    The situation with my girlfriend (vs. the fiance) is much, much better. They're on very good terms, and will probably end up going on dates and having adventures without me once in a while.

    Sometimes it takes a while to find the right person for the relationship. This is exceedingly true in a poly situation.
     
  23. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2006
    Messages:
    65,506
    Likes Received:
    1
    Lover? I thought you two got married.

    Anyway JJJ you're like the most secure guy I know. Cheers.
     
  24. Bubba Atlantis

    Bubba Atlantis New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,903
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    That is a key one that always needs to be kept in mind. A little different but along the same lines, there are things that you THINK you should be okay with or WILL be okay with so you say yes, when in fact, you are not okay with it. Best advice I can give is communicate; which means not going along with something that you are not IN THE MOMENT okay with. It won't turn out well.

    Agreed! One of the things that I have tried to keep in mind is that I am only 25 and therefore I have a lot of life left (hopefully :mamoru:). What do I mean by that? Well it sort of ties into the above comment in that there is no rush. You need to find the right situation and you need to go at a pace that is acceptable. What is better? Going really slowly for, say a year, and then having everything perfect or jumping right in and having an (possibly) AWESOME time for 6 months, or whatever, and having it all blow up in your face? I think that is one thing that many people don't think about. Or rather, you get so excited about the prospects of things that you just want to jump right in when, in reality, the best option is to take it slow :)
     
  25. Lovely Atlantis

    Lovely Atlantis Luscious Lovely Lady!

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    1,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver
    unless the girl your with is was a virgin before meeting you (which is unlikely) then some other guys penis will have been in your girl too...
     

Share This Page