GUN WMD - What rifle should I buy out of these 2?

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by merlin, Oct 8, 2008.

  1. merlin

    merlin OT Supporter

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    After over 3 months of stuffing around to get my firearms license (they make it very hard to aquire in Australia) and then an additional wait of 2 months for a "permit to aquire a firearm" (everytime you want to buy a gun you have to get a "permit to aquire" from the Police which costs $30 and takes a minimum of 28days) I have finally got all my paperwork and am ready to go shopping.

    After much thought I have narrowed down my first rifle purchase to a Remington 700 SPS Tactical (in either 308 or 223 - probably 223) or a Remington 7615 Police (only available in 223). Please note semi-auto is banned in Aus hence these choices.

    In Aus the 700 Tactical retails for $1180. I then need to factor in about $500-600 for a decent scope. The 7615P is on sale at the moment for $1615 which includes rifle, red-dot scope, bag and 100 rnds of 223. Whichever I choose I plan on replacing the stock with aftermarket options.

    Intended use is 70% target shooting at 50yrd indoor range, 25% target shooting at 200yrd outdoor range and 5% trips to the country to plink/hunt small game.

    Pros of 700 I see is better accuracy, reliability of bolt action and I also prefer bolt action over pump. Cons is it only has a 4 rnd internal mag and is slower to reload.

    Advantage of 7615 is it takes AR mags and comes with a 10rnd external mag from the factory. Its main advantage is that you can pump out 10 rounds pretty damn fast from the vids I have seen (almost semi-auto fast). Cons is accuracy would not be as good as the 700 (it has a 16.5" barrel) and obviously with the red-dot scope it will be of less use for target practice (though more interesting maybe and you can always through on a long range scope down the track).

    What does WMD think (besides "Aus has shitty gun laws")
     
  2. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    Shit, for what you are wanting to do, I'd rather have a nice .22lr.

    There would be no fun shooting a centerfire bolt gun (or pump) at 50yd, and little fun at 200yd off a static bench. A .22, maybe.
     
  3. GarandBobcat

    GarandBobcat New Member

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    .22lr would be better for 50yd indoor, but the 7615 is a crappy idea from Remington. Don't get one.
    I'd say get the SPS, and flip a coin on which caliber.
     
  4. sp00n155

    sp00n155 You underestimate the insignificance of my penis OT Supporter

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    .223 will be far cheaper, and at the ranges you've listed will be more than capable of destroying anything you want.
     
  5. merlin

    merlin OT Supporter

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    Cheers for the replies so far - yeah i plan on getting a 22lr as well. Be interested to hear why you think the 7615 is a crappy idea from Remington?
     
  6. GarandBobcat

    GarandBobcat New Member

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    Keep in mind that my criticism of the 7615 is mostly from a Law Enforcement background, rather than as a hobby shooter perspective.

    It's marketed at LEOs, as a "substitute" for a real patrol rifle (AR-15, etc), with the supposed advantage of having similar manual-of-arms to an 870 shotgun, which is the most common LE shotgun in the world, AFAIK.

    Problem is, training with a rifle the same as you would with a shotgun is a bad mistake.
    A shotgun is used only at the same ranges as a pistol, generally, due to buckshot spread rates: the general rule is 1 inch of spread per yard of travel, or thereabouts. (for those inclined to metric, you could also call it 3cm of spread per meter of flight). So at about 20 yards (or meters), the expected spread of buckshot is bigger than an assailant's torso probably will be, ergo you'll miss with a pellet (at least one), and stand a chance of injuring or killing a bystander. Obviously, that's bad.

    With a patrol rifle, you gain the advantage of precision, since you're only launching one projectile per shot, in a very predictable and known trajectory. And you gain range--patrol rifles are taught out to about 50m-100m, AFAIK, versus the 25m usual limit for pistols. The other nice thing about patrol rifles (which are frequently AR-15 types or Mini-14s, or something else semi-automatic) is rapid fire, compared to a pump shotgun, since they're mag-fed semi-autos. At closer ranges, this means a lot of aimed shots onto a small target (like an assailant's center of mass) in a very short time.

    The 7615 basically throws away the speed advantage of the semi-auto rifle, while gaining the slight, but potentially critical, difference in loading methods of a detachable magazine versus an integral tube.
    It's similar enough that training is similar, but different enough that under stress, an officer could easily think he (or she) is holding the more common shotgun, and attempt to use it as such, which would probably get the officer killed in a shootout. Rifles have to be used differently than shotguns to be optimally effective.

    Okay, so the cliffs notes version is, the 7615 has the disadvantages of an 870 or other pump shotgun, and the disadvantages of detachable magazines, with the added disadvantage of being too similar in feel and look (but very different in usage) to the 870. It acts like a .223 870, and as soon as an officer tries to use it like one, it exposes the officer to a lot of danger.

    Plus, judging by the pics and blurb on Remington's web page for the 7615, it doesn't even have sights on its own, but requires a separate mount--which is not compatible with the standard optics you'd use on a normal patrol rifle, like an Aimpoint, EoTech, Reflex, ACOG, etc, which mount to Picatinny-type rails like an AR upper has.

    It also encourages administrator-types to think they can cut corners on important categories like training. "Well, it works like an 870, and they already qual'd on 870s, so we don't really need to teach them much about these new guns, just a quick classroom session and that's it."

    I'd prefer an actual 870 to the 7615, and an 870 has the advantage of ammo variety.
     

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