GUN WMD, learn me on precision rifle barrels and glass

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by no7fish, Mar 16, 2009.

  1. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

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    So I was informed this weekend that my dad is working on a father-son project combo... He found a deal on some Rem 700 actions and has decided to make us a pair of rifles. Both will be .308, both have a detachable mag style floorplate, both are H-S precision stocks (very comfy) and all that's left now is a good barrel and some nice glass.

    Here's the p0rn:
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    [​IMG]

    So the real questions are:

    -Where do I learn about barrels? I've never selected a precision barrel before.... What's the stuff to think about?

    -Where do I learn about glass? Sniper's Hide seems to be the place togo, anything else i should be paying attention to? I want this thing to be my go-to long distance rifle and I'll cry once really bad if it means I never have to upgrade it :) (not often I get something worth doing that)
     
  2. If you're going with an aftermarket barrel, look into Shilen, Hart, Lilja, and Krieger. Everyone has a barrel philosophy, and as long as you get a quality barrel it will shoot better than you. If you're interested in competition use or just making real small groups you'll find the 4 makers I mentioned to be the popular choices.
     
  3. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

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    Basically the longest I have at my disposal right now is 250 but to me, in the southeast, "long range" is 400-600. I would like to work my way up to being able to hit things at 700+ but I know I need to start off by learning 300 and 400 ranges first.
     
  4. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    what bullets you plan on shooting?
     
  5. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

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    Reloads, not sure what yet. We have some nice brass but have not looked for projectiles yet. Any suggestions?
     
  6. Painkiller

    Painkiller The Synarchy of Molten Bones

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    Both .308's? boring :o do one in 6.5-284
    Rich DeSimone set a tough record to beat in the IBS Light Gun category with 1.564" 5-shot group at 1000 yards with his Ackleyized 6.5-284
     
  7. It depends on what you want to do. What will the rifles be used for? Barnes TSX bullets are well thought of for hunting. If you want to shoot targets at long range, SMKs are a good choice, and Berger's VLD is a great bullet too.
     
  8. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    The 155's (especially the Scenar) are where it's at, followed by the 175/3's, and then probably the 168SMK. Or at least, that's how my Hierarchy goes. Cost also pretty much follows that hierarchy as well.




    Anyways.... I assume that's HS bottom metal? Word of warning about those mount/rings setup; lose them. That rear ring (with the windage adjustable part) WILL fuck you eventually.

    As for barrels..... What are you wanting to know exactly? Personally, I'd just call all the big name makers (and gunsmith shops) and look for the first stainless 1:10 .30 cal blank in a suitable contour I could find. Assuming it's a high grade custom tube, I personally don't get real bent over the differences.

    You left this pretty open, so I have a feeling you aren't just talking the actual blanks. What are you feeling about chambers/throat/length/contour/etc?
     
  9. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

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    I expect to have different loads for paper and meat. To be honest I haven't even thought about it yet but I'm open to any knowledge that can be passed my way.

    It is indeed HS floorplates. Any suggestions on the mounts then? How does that adjustment hurt? (I'm not being an ass, really, does it sacrifice stiffness or is it just another adjustment to screw up?)

    I did leave it quite open because I'm looking to learn a lot mroe before I make any decisions at all. I'm thinking something bull, maybe fluted, no idea on throat or anything. Why stainless? I would prefer it to be dark but that doesn't mean it can't be stainless material. What are the options of twist on a .30 cal bore and what do they work for?

    I'm not expecting OT to come in and do all the work for me, I expect to have to do a lot of research but I don't know of any specific places to start other than what I've mentioned.

    As far as caliber, I've never owned a .308 and I would like one. I am sure there are "better" calibers out there, and admittedly I haven't locked in the chamber yet, but I don't see any reason to go with anything else right now. My 7-08 has better ballistics than a .308 too but I still want a .308 :) Really, if there's something better out there I'm somewhat open to it but it would have to be convincing.

    As always, thanks for the input guys! :)
     
  10. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    Haven't run the HS DBM setup, but hear it's alright. What's the max COAL of the mags?

    As for the windage adjustables rears.... They are failure points. In my experience, quite large ones. I've had the screws come loose on more than one occasion, once on a 22. I just put absolutely zero faith in them. Personally, I think that eccentric live-center rings (a la Burris signature series) are a much better idea (actually, I think they are the shit). Even better still to to make sure everything is straight to begin with, which can be done via machine work, or (my usual way of flying because I can't afford to always machine everything) to bed the base to the receiver, and possibly lapping of the rings themselves. There are plenty of better mounting solutions, that run the gammet as far as cost/look goes. Dual dovetail setups are better, Talley one-piece lightweights (which I love the shit out of) work better, as do the plethora of picatinny setups. Picatinny setups is what you usually see on "tactical" setups, and those run from $60 (EGW base/Burris XTR rings) to a couple hundred or more (Badger/USO/NF/etc).

    Barrel contours are a heated debate unto themselves. Personally, I don't follow the "only heavy ass tubes shoot" methodology, and much prefer the handling characteristics of lighter/shorter ones. Yes, I understand that some people claim that they will only be shooting it off a bench so weight won't matter, and I'll concede that it certainly won't as much, but handy/dandy is still something I nearly always prefer. Regardless, I assume you already have a general idea of contour, given that you already have a stock which I probably has already been cut with a specific barrel channel in mind. Looking at the stock pictured, I'd hazard a guess and say it's channeled for a Remington Varmint contour. If you are staying with that stock, that's probably not a bad place to start.

    As far flutes and length are concerned.... flutes are cool, but spendy. A modest shrink in contour will net you the same thing, for cheaper. Length can be dependent on what the intended goals are, but unless eeking the maximum FPS from a 308 case is the name of the game, I myself would have no interest in a longer tube. I would seriously consider finishing it at 20", maybe less. A Rem. Varmint tube cut at 20", in a HS stock would balance pretty well I think. Build that shit to balance, and be handy/dandy and you will never go back, I assure you.

    I picked stainless, because I'm a firm believer that they generally finish better (bore wise), last longer (rd wise), and shirk abuse from the elements better. None of that would be considered a bad thing. You are talking a very modest premium, on a part that will likely last quite some time. Not a bad place to spend an extra $50. As for who makes the best tube.... I dunno. You would be doing VERY well if you could shoot good enough to notice accuracy differences between any of the top makers. Barrel guys tend to get "hot" depending on who wins what each year with what tube. Cut-rifled barrels made by Bartlein seem to be the new hotness at the moment. Past hotness has been Rock, Pac-Nor (to a degree), Obermeyer, Kreiger, Hart, Lilja, and a whole fucking host of others. Go read some BR stuff and see who those guys are using if you really want to keep up on it. I literally buy whatever is available at the moment for the cheapest, becuase I'm usually impatient and cheap with that sort of thing. Obviousely I'm talking about topp-tier stuff here, not A&B/ER Shaw, or any of that bullshit. A good tube is one of the foundations of a good rifle, and part of the three "B's" (Bullets, Barrel, Bedding).

    Twist/throat/chamber(IE, palma 95, SAMMI minimum, etc - not necessarily what your case headstamps say) all require an understanding of how the rifle works, and what you are wanting to do. They are parts that many leave up to the gunsmith to guess about, and I think that's a shame and only serves as a potential to leave the end user unhappy. I'm not for leaving much to chance, so I'm explicit when I build my rifles to help bolster the chances of me being happy in the end. I think that the modest investment in time spent researching is definitely worth getting EXACTLY what I want. Understand those terms, and how they correlate to the rifle - it will help you immensely.

    In short, find out what you are wanting to run (bullet wise) and start there, not the other way around. I always include dummy rounds of my cartridges I plan on running with the parts, which will allow the builder to throat my rifles in accordance to COAL lattitude of the rifle proper. The goal is to be able to mag feed all my rounds, and kiss lands (generally where you notice your best accuracy) with each combination (flexibility is a common theme here, if you haven't noticed). This is why I asked about the COAL constraints of the HS mags, as that will play a CRUCIAL role in the above. Sending a 308 loaded with a 155 Scenar loaded out long enough to barely squeak past the mag would likely be a good place to start. As for twist, faster is (generally) better, as it gives you much more flexibility in bullet selection. Use bullets that don't suck, and you generally won't have to worry about extra RPM's causing mid-flight explosions, or crazy terminal effects.

    No prob, and I understand. I am not an expert, nor do I want to paint the picture that you have to be a master gunsmith to have a good rifle built. While all these terms and ideas might seem daunting to someone who went to Wall-Mart to buy a package deal Savage, they really aren't if you start poking around asking questions. A bolt gun is an amazingly simple machine, and I think most people hear bits of popular theories/wives tales that have been passed down forever, but have no understanding on why they are or aren't actually so.

    With that said, a good smith should understand the things I speak of above, and be able to make decisions as good as the info you provide him. Where problems are introduced is when he has to make guesses about what you are wanting to do. If nothing else, talk to a good gun plumber, and convey EXACTLY what you are thinking, what you want to do, and how you want your rifle to perform (not talking about "making it shoot good", things like weight, balance, bullets you want to use, FPS of said bullets, looks, etc). These guys have done this kinda thing once or twice, and probably have some good ideas on how to implement your wants. Start at the start (which is the bullet), and go from there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
  11. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

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    That's good stuff! Thanks for taking the time. I am an engineer by both trade and nature so I don't like the idea of picking up the phone and saying "build me a pimp rifle" I am taking this opportunity to learn about what makes a barrel good or bad for a particular combination and you've given me a great few places to start from. I'll have to look into a lot of that before I even start shopping now (which was the idea).

    I hadn't thought about the OAL part, that's a good point with the mag. I usually suit the bullet seat to the barrel and I've never been in a position to do it the other way around.

    Thanks again for the input guys.
     
  12. reman

    reman New Member

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    30" palma tube looks good














    jk I would get a 21" 3/4 in MTU contour
     
  13. fatmoocow

    fatmoocow bored OT Supporter

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    head over to snipercentral.com and snipershide.com

    then call up GAP or similar and have them blueprint your shit and install an 18" bull
     

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