GUN Why do people argue about hand gun caliber?

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by fatmoocow, Feb 16, 2009.

  1. fatmoocow

    fatmoocow bored OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    18,329
    Likes Received:
    307
    Location:
    the intarweb
    To me this is like arguing about what type to plastic to build your car engine out of. Handguns are not effective for self defense. Even 10mm isn't going to stop someone. Why?

    21 foot rule - If someone is within roughly 21 feet they can usually get to you and stab you in the face before you could draw and fire. Then it becomes hard to stop them with a missing face.

    Hit percentage - Use whatever hit percentage you want, it's not good enough. Most I've seen are below 20% for "trained" officers and that's with most shots inside 10 feet or so.

    What success rate is within the acceptable limit for you? Sure the chances of having to pull a gun are low, but once we're there, what are your odds of getting a shot off, having it hit a high center mass, and the guy dropping?

    Caliber just doesn't matter because speed and accuracy are such a limiting factor. If you can make one more accurate shot with a .22, you're better off with the .22.
     
  2. johnson

    johnson New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2003
    Messages:
    38,412
    Likes Received:
    0
    sorry, but .45 acp > .22 lr
     
  3. Hibidi-Shibidi

    Hibidi-Shibidi New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Messages:
    584
    Likes Received:
    0
    This has to be a troll thread.

    Sage.
     
  4. AB13

    AB13 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    3,668
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Because I can't legally carry my Shotgun or rifle on my persons as I can a handgun. Don't get me wrong, given the choice, I'd be blasting my way to my longarm.

    And having a gun, is better than not having one.

    As for draw fire engagement, one is only limited to their training.

    Caliber is something for the gear geeks to argue over, shot placement is key.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2009
  5. Jas0n

    Jas0n Антихрист

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2005
    Messages:
    21,823
    Likes Received:
    2
    Yeah, this is a popular study in law enforcement training exercises, but the point isn't to make you think "I might as well not fucking bother if the guy's within 21 feet" - it's to help you get trained to MOVE when you draw, to get off-center, to hit an aggressing target, and to protect yourself and your weapon as someone gets rapidly closer.

    Maybe slim, but it's a huge mistake to think that the point of firing a round from a handgun is to make a subject stop dead in his tracks and crumble to the ground dead. The point is to kill the subject, but it's well-known that the odds of making an instant kill are fairly slim - you may still have to fight, it may take multiple rounds to break this person's body enough that they'll relent... but ultimately, you win.

    Now, this is obviously a sliding scale. Some will be so shocked by the prospect of having been shot that they will stop, fall or lie down, and wait for the ambulance to come rescue them. Others will take several rounds before acknowledging that they're injured at all (add drugs to the mix and this is even more so).

    Incidentally, good training and practice will improve shot placement, and that'll speed the process of ending the threat. If you really don't think that's true, I don't know what to tell you.

    I agree that multiple shots are more effective than one given similar shot placement, and that shot placement is in itself important. But caliber is relevant: penetration is relevant, organ damage is relevant, a bullet's propensity to fragment or to mushroom or to disintegrate in a subject's body; these are relevant. Now, within the realm of combat rounds, these characteristics can be had across the spectrum. You can get .45ACP rounds that are ideally potent, and you can get some that are probably best plinked with. (Simple example: hollowpoint versus ball.) Same goes for 9mm, and everything in between.

    But .22? That's a stretch. And incidentally, there are several reasons which are not ballistics-related to argue against .22LR as a personal defense round.
     
  6. hsmith

    hsmith OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2002
    Messages:
    124,632
    Likes Received:
    741
    Location:
    Your mother.
    handguns are not effective for self defense, that is why i open carry a minigun

    NOW WUT
     
  7. purebad

    purebad I don't need your approval, right?

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,376
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Smyrna, GA
    I would take 21 feet with a gun any day.
     
  8. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    822
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think Soybomb said it best, he might have quoted it, I can't recall.

    Something along the lines of: It's all a matter of probability. Practice will increase your probability of a hit. A caliber with better terminal ballistics will increase your probability of stopping an attacker. All of the above will increase the probability you will survive an incident.

    I'm sure that's nothing like what he said but that's what I took away from it in a discussion we had a few years ago on here about calibers.
     
  9. Cannondale

    Cannondale OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2007
    Messages:
    83,763
    Likes Received:
    561
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Remove the head, or destroy the brain. That's the only way to truly stop anything other than robots. Those are much harder.
     
  10. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    18,944
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ol' Painless :cool:
     
  11. spankaveli

    spankaveli OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2002
    Messages:
    16,466
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    LA. State, not City.
    Troll thread or not, I agree to an extent. I wouldn't advise anyone carry a firearm that's less than service caliber but if it's prohibitive, one should carry what they can accurately and safely fire.
     
  12. TATEROTE

    TATEROTE OT Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2008
    Messages:
    3,965
    Likes Received:
    0
    ibyar&joecooldebate
     
  13. wickedgun

    wickedgun New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2008
    Messages:
    413
    Likes Received:
    0
    i think someone just wanted to flex some tactical brains.
     
  14. McCroskey

    McCroskey Jonny, what can you make out of this? OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    40,789
    Likes Received:
    160
    Location:
    in the tower
    this is why i keep an AC130 orbiting above me at all times.
     
  15. LancerV

    LancerV Something Happened OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    49,895
    Likes Received:
    76

Share This Page