GUN When do rifles > handguns?

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by sushibug, Sep 10, 2004.

  1. sushibug

    sushibug :happysad:

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    I'm talking about when the firepower of a rifle dominates that of a handgun. Specifically that one Los Angeles bank robbery with the guys with the automatic rifles. The cops had to run to a gun store and grab guns to counter them. Anyhow, back to the topic.. when is a rifle actually worthwhile in a shootout? When it's 100+ yards away or is it always better? Dunno... SWAT and what not breech with rifles but why don't criminals ever use em?
     
  2. thefireflyjar

    thefireflyjar New Member

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    Because you can conceal a pistol. why the hell would a criminal want to give away the fact that he's armed by carrying around a huge rifle, when he could just slip a pistol under his shirt? Rifles are fine in a gunfight if you're in a position with good cover, thus enabling you to take advantage of a rifle's superior accuracy. Unless by rifles, you meant assault rifles. if you meant assault rifles, then i dont know what to say, and i hope someone who knows more about this posts in this thread. That's my 2 cents.
     
  3. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    Plain and simple most criminals want to have a weapon that is concealable. Knives and handguns are great for that; rifles and shotguns are harder.

    The reason there is so much talk among the good guys about pistols is for the same reason the bad guys like them. They are portable and easier to carry. In a defensive situation you need a gun RIGHT FUCKING NOW. A rifle in your car trunk or at home in your safe doesn't help you here in the dark alley. A pistol on your belt is a lot more practical.

    To answer your first question a rifle will out perform a pistol in 99% of defensive situations. They are more accurate, easier to aim and fire, have MUCH better ballistics, often hold more ammo and make a better impact weapon if it comes to that. Only in the tightest of confines or if you had to fight one handed for some reason would a pistol be preferable.

    As a wise man once said, "You carry a pistol when there is a 0% chance of a gunfight. 1% and up means you should bring a rifle or shotgun."

    Just my opinion of course.
     
  4. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    no, pistols are never equal to rifles, much less better than them, except when you factor in concealability. pistol cartridges are very crappy when compared to rifle calibers, in terms of accuracy, range, terminal ballistics, and magazine capacity. in an ideal situation, your pistol would be used ONLY to fight your way back to your rifle. in modern society, if you carried a rifle around, people would get nervous, and the cops would, in all of their infinite wisdom and judgment, shoot you first and ask questions later.

    the north hollywood robbers kept going so long because:

    A) LA cops have shitty aim. a well-placed shot the head or the extremeties would've ended the whole thing. instead, they kept getting shot by the robbers, and kept shooting into the body armor.

    B) the officers, in light of their inability to pierce the body armor of the robbers, failed to obtain even the simplest of rifles for a LONG, LONG time. if even ONE bolt-action hunting rifle had been used, that would've ended it. the armor those guys were wearing wouldn't have stopped any rifle rounds at all, especially if you shot them in the head. the media made a big deal about how the cops had to get "assault rifles" to keep up with assault rifles, but that's not true. someone's simple hunting rifle would've done the trick, easy.

    criminals don't often use rifles, like the above fellows said, because pistols give the element of surprise. if your victims see a rifle in your hands from a ways away, you're going to have a hard time doing much else than shooting them in the back. that probably isn't going to draw the kind of attention you want if you're a criminal, because then you can't just tuck that rifle into your pants and hope no one figures out you just made that shot.
     
  5. sushibug

    sushibug :happysad:

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    mp5 = sub-machinegun w/ 9mm rounds right? newb question but 9mm bullets being shot from a mp5 dont have the same velocity as from a pistol does it?
     
  6. Joe_Cool

    Joe_Cool Never trust a woman or a government. Moderator

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    Like Footrat said, a pistol is almost never equal to a rifle.

    I can think of only one situation when it would be prefelrable: close quarters. In a tight space or in very close combat, a pistol's small size and greater maneuverability would be preferable to the longer and more unwieldy rifle, even given the rifle's accuracy and power advantages.
     
  7. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    Increased barrel length will almost always increase velocity but all you are really doing is speeding up a turd.

    Many SWAT/SRT teams are leaving the MP5 like a bad habit. If you are going to carry something that is almost as large as a rifle you might as well be carrying a rifle for all of its advantages. The two biggest advantages are less overpenetration risk and higher wounding potential with more rapid incapacitation. Cops are slow to change but they aren't permanently stupid. For many departments because they already own the MP5's they can't justify the funding necessary to make the transition. They have to not only fund the new weapons but also fund retraining time and ammo as well as all new support gear (mag pouches, etc.).

    There is a huge "cool factor” to the MP5 but it really is just a 9mm pistol with some extra barrel length, a stock and a selector switch. Don’t get me wrong, I like the MP5 very much but if I’m going into a fight, I want a rifle or shotgun.
     
  8. GunShow

    GunShow You had best unfuck yourself

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    Many SWAT/SRT/HRT teams are dropping the MP5's or at least leaving them in resereve. The AR-15 type rifles are being adopted as the new hotness for tactical teams, and nowhere is this more evident than the huge contract DEA just signed with Rock River Arms for their rifle.
     
  9. Jefferson Darcy

    Jefferson Darcy Ol' shit chest

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    when do rifles > handguns?

    short answer, ALWAYS.

    the only thing a pistol does better than a rifle is conceal.

    Someone, I think Jeff Cooper, said the only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way to a rifle.

    Of course, you cant carry a rifle during your daily routine, but you can carry a pistol.


    Firepower? a rifle always > a pistol. JUst look at a rifle round next to a pistol round. Distance? thats obvious.... but close quarters too. Rifles are easier to hit with and cause far more damage.

    I'm comparing apples to apples here tho, semi auto rifles to semi auto pistols. Bolt action and single shots may not fare too well in CQB.... but something like a lever action carbine still owns a pistol for CQB.


    criminals dont use pistols very often because they are not concealable. You can walk down the street with just about any handgun on you unnoticed. Can you do that with an AK or AR-15? Noooooo
     
  10. Jefferson Darcy

    Jefferson Darcy Ol' shit chest

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    :slap: While you may very well be a better shot than the average police officer... you wouldnt fare any better. 9mm pistols vs armored perps with full auto AK's... hmm who do you think is gonna win?

    Head shots and extremities? :ugh: Do you realize how hard it is to shoot a handgun that accurately under stress? I'd say being shot at with full auto AK's is a pretty damn stressful situation.

    Why were they shooting them in the body armor? They were trained to shoot COM, and in a stressful situation you fall back on your training.


    I agree with this point. This is why most PD's are moving towards "patrol carbines", having some sort of rifle, usually an AR variant available to patrol cops in their cars. SUre, a if they got a hunting rifle it would have ended quicker... but if they all had AR's in their cars it would have been over before it started. Too bad my dept hasnt got the hint.

    theres about a 1 in a million chance a cop would ever have to use a carbine... in fact most cops never even fire their pistol in combat in their careers, even in my dept. But if you need a rifle, you need it NOW, not when ESU (or the swat team) gets there.
     
  11. sushibug

    sushibug :happysad:

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    very interesting and informative thread if i might say so.
     
  12. Platinum_Thunder

    Platinum_Thunder Reliability for life and liberty

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    What's going to happen to the surplus :x:
     
  13. Mugwump

    Mugwump Guest

    Could I get a link to a story about this LA gunfight?
     
  14. Joe_Cool

    Joe_Cool Never trust a woman or a government. Moderator

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  15. 67olds442

    67olds442 uhhhh

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  16. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    yeah, their rifles were autos. illegally converted, unregistered autos. also, not a single officer was killed. a few were wounded, but not even ONE was killed, in all that shit. that's just a testament to the "deadly" nature of automatic firearms.
     
  17. 67olds442

    67olds442 uhhhh

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    along with that I was watching something on WWII and vietnamn and during WWII (with the M1's and the like) for one kill they used like 40,000 rounds, in vietnamn for one kill (with the fully auto m16's and the like) they used something like 200,000 rounds....
     
  18. Joe_Cool

    Joe_Cool Never trust a woman or a government. Moderator

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    Interesting. Everything I've read about it says they were armed with semiautomatic rifles, but I just listened to the 42 minute police scanner recording, and I hear full auto fire.

    :dunno: Sorry for the misinfo.

    One thing: I'm shocked at how flustered and unprofessional these cops sounded. It's like they go to pieces at the first sign of resistance. They panic if they don't overwhelmingly outgun their opponents.
     
  19. Joe_Cool

    Joe_Cool Never trust a woman or a government. Moderator

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    There are 10mm and a .40S&W MP5 variants (called the MP-5/10 and MP-5/40), but I've read that not many departments are adopting it for some reason. At any rate, 10mm is still a pistol round, even with a hot load. And pistol rounds aren't very effective against armor. They'd do better to carry short rifles if they need better firepower.
     
  20. 67olds442

    67olds442 uhhhh

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    I've heard of a company working on a "reactive metal", looked really interesting. They showed a round being fired into a steel plate, in penetrated it, then they fired the same type of round at a block of beef and the round completly dystroyed it. I believe it was features in tales of the gun series on the History channel
     
  21. Henry47

    Henry47 New Member

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    Theres a movie based on the shootout in LA. You can rent it at blockbuster, it's called "44 Minutes"
     
  22. sushibug

    sushibug :happysad:

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    any good? the actual footage of it is pretty crazy.
     
  23. Henry47

    Henry47 New Member

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    i believe they took facts from the actual shooting and incorporated them into the movie. It's all right, not that great, not too bad. Not something i'd pay to watch though.
     
  24. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    Take the hype of Blended Metal ammo with some skepticism. I've read just about everything the company has put out about their products as well as all the rebuttals and I'm still very skeptical that a round can do what they claim theirs can.
     
  25. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    Why would you want a "happy medium"? Any pistol round no matter how hot is still inferior to a standard rifle round.

    As Joe said there are 10mm and .40 cal MP5 variants available.
     

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