ugh i am so uncomfortable with the software we are releasing

Discussion in 'OT Technology' started by hsmith, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. hsmith

    hsmith OT Supporter

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    Of course, client wants everything.

    They have all these features and it "had" to be rushed (because they oversold it and their VC is breathing down their neck). so of course, code quality is crap because there is only so much you can do to meet the deadlines.

    i hate attaching my name to this shit. my boss didn't want to take the project because she knew this would happen, but the guy was a long time friend :weak:
     
  2. kingtoad

    kingtoad OT Supporter

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    Sounds like 90% of the shit I do.
     
  3. Specious

    Specious New Member

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    I fixed it for you.
     
  4. SLED

    SLED build an idiot proof device and someone else will

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    fucking :werd:
     
  5. hsmith

    hsmith OT Supporter

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    :rofl:

    i have made my concerns well noted too :o

    it just pisses me off, why can't people understand this shit :mad:
     
  6. SLED

    SLED build an idiot proof device and someone else will

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    when there is $$$ on the table, VP's and Sales guys don't want to hear anything about how comfortable you are with your code. It's easier for them to justify bug-fixing software after release, rather than promising a release date, and then going back on their word. Sad, but true.
     
  7. hsmith

    hsmith OT Supporter

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    i know and it really pisses me off.

    plus the customer just had a meeting with us yesterday and they wnated to try and change MORE shit before our "deadline" next week.

    YOU CAN'T KEEP CHANGING THINGS AND EXPECT STATIC DEADLINES :mad:
     
  8. SLED

    SLED build an idiot proof device and someone else will

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    i hope you told them to fuck off :o
     
  9. hsmith

    hsmith OT Supporter

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    i just LOLed.

    i won't be getting fired, what do i care :o
     
  10. Bruticus

    Bruticus half dead OT Supporter

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    Non computer people just don't fucking understand how long these things can take to change >< Always makes it bloody frustrating :squint:
     
  11. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    So you tell the customer, "I can make these changes but at this stage of development I'll need x more weeks and y more dollars to get it done." Then you let them make the call.

    BTW, it sounds like you could use a software engineer -- someone to interview the customer and deal with all of the configuration management for the program you're coding, and to finalize the design for each version of the program BEFORE coding begins.
     
  12. hsmith

    hsmith OT Supporter

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    no, but the sad thing is these guys have tecnhical background. the one guy ran a pretty big software company in the 90's
     
  13. hsmith

    hsmith OT Supporter

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    well we do all that, but still they come in and want all these changes and don't seem to grasp why they don't occur and push the time line back
     
  14. SLED

    SLED build an idiot proof device and someone else will

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    deus is right. The only defense you have besides the fact that the software will be CRAP is that it will take X more hours and Y more $$. This usually makes sense to the people who are forking out the money for it, especially if it was not in the original scope.
     
  15. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    It doesn't take a technical background to run a company; it takes a BizDev or BizMan background to run a company. The one guy doesn't really have to know shit about how the work gets done, just that...

    WORK TAKES TIME AND COSTS MONEY

    ...which is a simple comcept that every manager-type person understands. If the customer wants more work without spending more of their money, then don't do business with them again.
     
  16. hsmith

    hsmith OT Supporter

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    i think the frustraing part is, these guys are quasi-technical. so they know enough to sort of know what can go on, but they don't know enough to know the limitations.

    at least with clients that have no idea what to expect, you can sort of lead them around. super-technical clients at least understand the limitations.

    but these fucknuts that sort of understand concepts, they think they know everything.
     
  17. 7960

    7960 New Member

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    it's been that way forever........... good, quick, cheap

    pick two.
     
  18. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    'Software Engineers' aren't magicians. What they need is management that has enough sense to give some pushback to the demands of sales. That takes vision. Most people are content to deliver interally bankrupt crap just to get the short term money.

    Most companies deliver unmaintainable shit. This is why I started my own company. I got tired of it. That is not rewarding to me.
     
  19. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    Being a software engineer involves having project management training and/or expertise. If you can't see the big picture and parcel it out to technicians to get the work done, you can't be a software engineer.
     
  20. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    Damn...this thread really makes me want to rethink my major. Graduating with CS degree in May 07. Ugh...this doesn't sound like fun.
     
  21. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    This strict boundary you place between normal developers and software engineers is non-existant. Everyone who programs professionally is a software engineer. Its just a question of whether they're good at it, and what level of granularity they work at.

    And what I'm saying is that the problem is rarely technical people having inadequate skills. Its usually management who promises the world, and then the only way to meet that feature list on that timeline is to create internally bankrupt, shit software. Having the best software engineer in the world as your architect doesn't mean shit if you don't take the time to architect. And most companies don't.
     
  22. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    The strict boundary I place between normal developers and software engineers does exist; the industry as a whole is moving in the direction of having software engineers be more heavily-involved with design and planning (like every other kind of engineer) and less with implementation. Why? Because, as you noted in another thread, you can outsource coding, but you can't outsource planning, documentation, and customer interaction. A software engineer isn't just a programmer who talks to people and gets exposed to sunlight every now and then -- and least that isn't what a software engineer is anymore. And I know plenty of coders who are pissed off about having the "art" removed from their jobs. Sorry guys, the planning has to be done right -- inventing the high-level design (and modifying it) on-the-spot just isn't acceptable for large projects anymore.
     
  23. kingtoad

    kingtoad OT Supporter

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    That's what they teach you in school, but that's not how it works in this world.
     
  24. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    Right, but it doesn't actually work like that in the real world. When you draw a textbook distinction like this, you sound really, really green. Different software people have different skills. Some architect and never write a single line of code. Some code low level drivers in assembly. But EACH undergoes much the same process, if he be competent and is allowed time. Its just on a different level of granularity.

    The textbook distinction is made in the textbook in order to emphasize the difference between a properly designed system and one where you just 'dive in' and start coding.

    And there is no such thing as a competent 'software engineer' that is not also in touch with implementation details that a 'programmer' would take care of in your model. The two aren't divorced. You can't spin a good design from a set of requirements without being in touch with the technology most appropriate for your solution, at a detailed level. Gates is famous for his understanding of MS's shite at a low level, to the point where he can grill project leads with questions they can't answer. This is why Microsoft was so successful for so long.

    And you can outsource design, documentation, etc. Why couldn't you? But you've got to have domain experts in house, and customer interaction needs to be done by these westerners.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2006
  25. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    The distinction I speak of never came from a textbook; it came from adjunct professors who worked for software companies, some while they were teaching as well. In other words, it came from people who saw it in their day-to-day "real lives". My school was very keen on hiring adjuncts for that very reason; there were almost no true academics there, and I'm glad for that.

    No, you can't outsource design and documentation; not effectively, anyway. You need natives to navigate the intricacies of cultural biases when designing UIs, when creating functionalities that will make sense to users, and when documenting the whole shebang such that it is clear, concise, and very, very accurate at the same time.
     

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