FRK Trust and relationships v. 47millions v. discussing my previous relationship...

Discussion in 'Vaginarium' started by affende, May 13, 2008.

  1. affende

    affende Resident 4X4 Elitest Prick

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    so this isnt specifically F/S related but i did have Tigre approve the thread. I dont share my relationship status with anyone, but the anonymity of the internet lends itself useful for this. in addition, the nature of our lovely forum lends itself to useful information and insight on trust as the specific nature of our fun is founded on trust between partners. Over the past few years of OT i have come to respect a great number of you (tigre, PE, Bubba, Atlantis, Cherry, Rouge, others, etc ... ). for these reasons i asked Tigre if could post and he graciously agreed.

    My previous relationship (engagement .... was supposed to get married 5/17/08 ... :wtc: ) ended and i feel part of the problem was lack of trust between us.

    a little background for her: The vast majority of men in her family have been unfaithful on at least one occasion. Her father had a longterm affair which ended her parents marriage on the christmas of her 16th birthday (her DOB is 12/19/08). That christmas, her father bought her a car for her 16th birthday / christmas present and upon finding this out on Christmas day, her mother ended the marriage and started the divorce process blaming everything on my ex / the car .... which my ex drives to this day. In addition to her fathers affair, her grandfather and both uncles have had affairs and generally mistreated their wives.

    Obviously, this lends itself to deeply seeded trust issues as she is blamed for her fathers affair and the ultimate end to her parents marriage.

    background on me: I was a late bloomer. my sophomore year of h/s i was 5' tall and 95 lbs ... obviously i was targeted. the cliche "all bark no bite" was not my motto. i learned very early to "bark fast" and "bite hard". at the first sign of trouble, i let people know i was not the one to fuck with. As i grew older, this transformed into passive aggressive behavior. i am a very tolerant person, but i can only take so much.

    i am a very sensitive person. i have my own feelings and i want them respected. i give others the same courtesy. i respect her issues and i try to be sensitive but i can take only so much.

    ............

    it was pretty obvious from the start of the relationship that there were trust issues on her end due to sever and continuous infidelity from all of the men in her family (father, grand father, great grandfather, unlces, etc) as i stated earlier.

    i was under constant scrutiny for infidelity. if i was 5 minutes late for anything she assumed i was out cheating. if a number called my phone that didnt show up in my phone book it was obviously an ex or a sideline g/f.

    my usual attire is greasy carhartts and a greasy t-shirt. if for some reason or another i decided to dress nicer (which for me is non-greasy carhartts and a non greasy button down carhartt shirt) then i must have been out cheating on her and dressing up for someone else.

    i work on cars / trucks and i do all my own mechanic work in addition to welding and working at sears. work runs over. unforeseen problems on a vehicle runs over. even with notice of a phone call saying i would be running later than usual would end in a fight from me being called a cheater and her saying i was out cheating.

    as i stated earlier i am a very patient and understanding person. i understand peoples insecurities and i respect them and i try my best to be sensitive to that. but i can be sensitive for only so long. i cannot stand by and be told i am a cheater and a lier. i have integrity and i am proud, but i cannot be told i am what i consider to be the worst type of person. i wont be called that for years on end when i have never deserved any of it ....

    ................................................


    im posting this partly because all of this has been heavy on my chest for a while and i needed to get it out ... i also wanted it post it to open it up for discussion. i would really like to discuss this and i know its kind of thrown together ... its 1 am and im tired and at this point emotional ....

    im not asking to be coddled, and i know i play a part in the problems of our relationship, but any insight or advice or observations would be appreciated ...


    thanks OTFS.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2008
  2. Phantom Empress

    Phantom Empress mmmmmm tasty!!!

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    well I know this may be mean... but be GLAD you are out of that relationship. It's not healthy to be scrutinized day in and day out because of someone else's issues.

    You just need to move on and learn to find trusting and trustworthy people that will be a positive influence in your life, that will appreciate your patience.

    :hug:
     
  3. affende

    affende Resident 4X4 Elitest Prick

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    im torn ... we have been talking and she is driving up friday to talk about some things. with everything that has gone on, i do lover her. i want my life with her, but only if we can work things out.

    i do want this to work, but not at the current cost.

    one of the reasons i started this thread is for insight on what can be done to help the situation between us.
     
  4. Phantom Empress

    Phantom Empress mmmmmm tasty!!!

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    she needs more help on her own than you can provide. then afeter she's set with some good therapy under her belt, then youtwo may consider couples counceling.... but i don't know if you want to invest that much timeon a person that MAY NEVER change even after therapy.
     
  5. Bubba Atlantis

    Bubba Atlantis New Member

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    Sorry to hear about your engagement ending. I can not imagine how difficult that must have been; and still is. Trust is such an important part of a relationship. Without it, I think any relationship is doomed. Of course this is a bit different, but we always stress communication and trust in FS because without it, there are too many problems.

    *Sidenote* Love her birthday (mine is the 18th)

    It seems like she has had a difficult time growing up. It is amazing how much of an impact our background can have on how we view life. It would appear that her parents were not helpful in the situation. They seemed to place her right in the middle of things and refused to take responsibilty for their own actions; instead placing the blame on her. Denial is a powerful defense mechanism. I must admit I have a tendency to use it myself. I think we all do. She seemed to be trapped in one of those situations where the child is used as leverage in a failed marriage. Personally, I think she needs some counselling because there is no way she is functioning at a normal level. That might have contributed to your failed relationship. Until she resolves her internal issues she will not be able to survive a regular relationship without having doubts.

    It seems that you have had some difficulties of your own. When I was younger I was (and to some degree still am) very blunt, tactless and sometimes awkward in unfamiliar situations. This created a lot of problems for me. I resorted to humour to overcome this. The problem is, a lot of my humour tends to have an element of teasing. It is the way I defend myself from being hurt by others. I tend to fairly passively aggressive as well; but I think that is just because I am a bit sadistic and I love to piss people off and watch them squirm (probably why I studied personality psychology :mamoru:)

    It must have been difficult to be constantly scrutinized for any move you made. When we are having difficulties with stuff we tend to shape our lives to live up to those images. What I mean by that is that if you think poorly of an individual your actions will result in that person appearing poor to you. Moreover, you will overemphasize the negative points and ignore the positives. We want people to contour to our internal expectations.

    This is primarily why I believe your ex needs clinical help. She needs to remove this perception or she will have difficulties in the future with any partner she has.

    Not to assume anything but it would appear there was a major lack of communication between the two of you. Not necessarily that there was a lack of actual communication, but whatever communicating that occur was not received by the other party (does that make sense).

    Jealousy, fear, lack of trust can be very difficult to get over. More importantly it puts a lot of stress on the other partner. I think a major viewpoint of the one being accused is 'you must not completely love me or think I love you, or you would not think I was cheating on you'. When you have that (justified) mindset, it can be difficult to make a relationship work. Although not the same, constantly being accused can be seen as similar to emotional and verbal abuse. It is probably not your prototypical form, but I think it could still classify.

    I had a friend who was having some difficulties. She had those difficulties for year and things only were resolved when she found the right person to help her. For years she said she needed to see a counsellor but would not make an appointment. Eventually I forced her to. I sat beside her while she phoned and made sure she went in. It changed so much in her life and she was very greatful. It would appear your ex needs someone like that. Sadly (maybe) for you, you were not that person. That isn't anything negative on your part. Everyone has strengths in different areas and everyone knows their limits and what they are capable of.

    I do not know if you are still friends or if it was a clean break (I suspect the latter), but if you are friends and you care for her, then you might want to be a good friend and get her the help she needs. It can be good to do something for someone else. If not, I suggest learning from this relationship and understanding what your needs are in a relationship and ensure that your next relationship fits your expectations.

    Sometimes the most theraputic method is just being able to get it out, so I totally understand your need to post this. Kuddos to you as well for being so open about this in such a public place.

    I think for your future relationships you might need to communicate more. This isn't to say that you did not in this past relationship (I can't tell with the limited information) but perceptions of secrecy can quickly deteriorate a relationship.

    Umm, I am not fully sure what else to say, but if you can compile some points I would love to chat about this more :)
     
  6. yankeeschick14

    yankeeschick14 New Member

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    I'm so sorry about your relationship. When did this come to an end?

    like PE said, if this is ever going to work and you are even considering getting back together with her, she needs to agree to go through counseling and help herself before there can ever be a her and you.
     
  7. affende

    affende Resident 4X4 Elitest Prick

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    that is what boggles me. We found out together that my passive aggressive behavior and tendencies to "blow-up" caused major problems. we agreed that counseling for that would be very helpful and i stuck to my word to get help with a problem that i could not control on my own.

    we also agreed that her insecurities concerning adultery were very detrimental to the relationship and that personal counseling for that would be helpful. she never followed through.

    i felt like i fulfilled my end of the deal, and she did not.

    I agree with this 100%. This is one reason I posted this here, I know it isn’t f/s in nature, but my problems stem from the foundation of our little forum. Trust and communication is absolutely paramount.

    My brothers is 12/18 :love:

    I feel this is exactly what they did. You have no idea how many times she and I talked about this exact same thing and how it affects our relationship.

    I agree with that. She agreed partly with it at one point but she doesn’t see it as a problem. Her rationalization was “I worry and I ask and I check up on you because I care. You (affende) must not care about us / me since you don’t worry about that.” How can I continue to push the issue of counseling without making it seem like im blaming our problems on her (im not, I did my share of damage too).


    Dear god. You just described me to a ‘T’. I do all of that. I feel super awkward in unfamiliar situations and generally fall back on inappropriate humor to lighten the mood for me by making others around me uncomfortable (leveling the playing field perhaps?? :dunno: ) What kind of problems does this (me) cause for relationships?

    I want to make this know now, this thread is not meant to bash my ex or say she caused all the problems and the ultimate end of our relationship. Please point out my own mistakes and problems, too. Just because they are obvious mistakes to you, they are likely hidden to me.

    I think you are right. And I know im just as guilty of this as she is. Once it was in her head that I was cheating, it never left. Once she accused me of it, that is all I see. What can I can do to do my part in helping with this?

    I feel that way too. One thing she mentioned to me when I started my own counseling is that it would help in our relationship and in any future relations assu hips (this was before we were engaged). I just wish she could see how it would benefit her as well. I wish the door swung both ways on that, so to speak. How can I help with that? Or can i?

    We talked extensively about this and we both agreed with what you are saying. No so much lack of communication, I feel, but something is always lost in translation along the way. Im talking in French and she only hears german, and vice versa.

    I definitely feel that way. I felt like if her love was true for me, she would trust me and thusly not constantly scrutinize. I absolutely see it as emotional abuse. I feel like the woman I love, the woman I would die for, and live for, thinks I am this horrible person. I feel like she has this complete misconception of who I am. The emotional toll of that is unbearable and has cause physical / emotional problems for me.

    I think you are right. I want to believe that I am the right person for her in every way, but in reality, I have tried to help with this, and in doing so, I have likely caused more problems. I know beyond a doubt that she my other half. I just wish I could be hers.

    We do still talk and we have talked about trying to work things out. She is driving up on Friday to talk about some things. With everything we have been through though, I just don’t know if we can repair all of the damage and fix our problems. Realistically speaking, there is years of repair work to be done. I want to talk to her and stress the importance of counseling to help with her issues, but history tells me the second I even allude to the possibility that she has any problems, the entire situation will explode. i really feel like I cannot under any circumstances say that she needs to work on this, but its ok for her to say I need to work on my problems.


    You have no idea how much emotional stress it relieves to just talk about it and finally get it off my chest.

    In all honesty, I don’t know how to communicate better. Throughout the last year we have done pre-marital counseling and we have brought up better communication skills in every meeting. I just don’t know how to ….

    It would be much appreciated.

    And ^this^ is exactly why I wanted to post in f/s … knowledge and experience is priceless.
     
  8. chakup

    chakup Guest

    My current situation is similiar- but different!

    Been married 7.5 years, with the girl for 10+. Found out that last year she had multiple affairs. It get's better that to the best of my ability to figure it out she still is. I'm trying to accept that sometimes people don't want to change who they are from how they were raised. She probably didn't seek counseling because to her it has become a crutch of sorts. She know's that she can hold onto that one thing when everything else is going wrong for her. If she seeks help and fixes it she loses that control.

    My honest advice- be thankful it's coming out now. I'll never say run from someone you love because I know from experience how much you want to stay and fight. But really look at things and see if that's something that you can handle recurring for the next 1, 5, 10 years. Will she ever be able to let that go and simply trust?
     
  9. Bubba Atlantis

    Bubba Atlantis New Member

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    Sorry to hear about that. YOu are in a very difficult position. On the one hand there is anger and hurt from her infidelity. On the other, you have spent so much of your life with her and love her so much. It is always a tough call.

    @Affende...I am getting to your comments....it is fairly long though, so it will take a bit of time. :big grin:
     
  10. RougeOgre

    RougeOgre FS Librarian and MOD

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    Concur... sorry.:sadwavey:
     
  11. Bubba Atlantis

    Bubba Atlantis New Member

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    Independent of whether things work out with your ex or not, good on you to take constructive criticism from another and do something to better yourself. It might seem like a small thing but it should be something you are very proud of. A lot of people are unable to accept their flaws, let alone work on improving them.


    Although I understand your feelings of her not following through, I must comment on this. I am not saying your issue was easier than hers, but what I will say is that people deal with things at different paces. Furthermore, your passive aggressive behaviour might not have had as negative of an affect on your life as she PRECEIVES (key is perceives ;)) her issue to have had on her own life. It might be that she is just not in a place right now where she can deal with her issues. She might be aware of the problems but just wishes to ignore them or deny it because she feels that she can not deal with it at the given moment.

    Cool! In my opinion it is the best day…but then again, I am rather bias :mamoru:



    They key here is that the blame has to be removed from her. Not only by her parents but those around her. The problem with stating how it affects your relationship is it can quickly put her on the defensive about the situation. If she does feel somewhat responsible, bring the topic up will only cause her to immediately get on the defensive; which results in her not hearing what is being said. This is why myself (and others) have voiced that she needs clinical help. It may not necessarily be that she needs the clinical help, but more she needs someone who has no role in her life that can listen. When you are in a negative state, you stop believing those around you. ‘Well of course XXX is going to say that, he thinks YYY of me’ or ‘your just saying that because of XXX’; simple rationalization.




    Sometimes there is only so much you can do. In my opinion it is a stupid analogy but you can bring a horse to water but you can not make it drink. With the friend I helped, I was willing to be there for her before and after her appointment and I was willing to drive her or whatever she needed, but it was totally up to her to follow through. To me she does not seem ready to deal with her issue and there might not be anything you can do about it at this time.


    When you are uncomfortable, you use humour to ease the tension. The primary purpose of using teasing humour as a defense mechanism is to knock those around you down so you feel superior and thus more comfortable. When we tease people it is to make ourselves feel more superior and important. So, the use of this humour can be seen as a form of compensating for inadequacies. This can cause major problems in your relationship, because it tends to be coupled with a ‘fear’ to deal with issues. Instead of getting into something uncomfortable you change the topic and discussion and joke to ignore what is happening. Umm, I had something else to add to this, but I can not remember at the moment :)


    We are so used to ourselves that we tend to not see how our actions can be destructive. Personally, I think it is great to do self-reflection. I try to do it regularly. Sometimes it is more successful than other times and I do not always listen to what I find out about myself :mamoru:


    You probably felt attacked every time, so you got defensive and angry at it. Couple that with being passive aggressive and you have a deadly combo. Also, I suspect you knew that she would accuse you of being unfaithful and thus dreaded telling her anything because you knew it would insight fears on her part. This might have resulted in you keeping things from her, just so that you did not get in a fight. Therefore, you were being more secretive; which to a person who believes their partner is cheating is the ‘most obvious sign that they are’


    As I said previously you might not be able to help her out. She needs to figure things out for herself. You can be supportive and helpful in the process but you can only do so much. It is hard to give you too much advice on how to deal with this specifically as I have not had to. Lovely used to have moderate jealousy issues, but it never was that bad. These have since gone away and that may have just been due to the evolution of our relationship. I mean she was jealousish when we were just the two of us. Now that we are fooling around with others, she is not jealous :dunno: However, do you know why things changed? It wasn’t because of me. I would get angry when she got jealous. The reason it changed is because SHE wanted it to change. She rationalized things and understood the feeling and the situation and was able to overcome it. As much as I would like to brag it was me, it really wasn’t much. The only role I had in things was that while she was figuring things out for herself, I was conscious of her feelings and was supportive. I would try not to do things that would spark jealousy.


    There is a reason why there are so many counsellors and they make a shit load of money. A lot of people can not communicate with one another. My personal opinion is that this is the real reason why marriages fail. Even when you are angry you need to be able to communicate effectively or you will not resolve problems. It might sound weird but I have always had an interesting view on relationship. My feeling is, if you do not argue you do not have a good relationship. There is no possible way that you will always get along with your partner, thus there must be things you could argue about. If you refuse to disagree about things, then it shows that you do not care about the relationship. If you cared about the relationship than you would ‘fight’ for it. There, of course, is a line for this scenario. Arguing all the time is certainly not good, but every once and a while is good IMO.


    I love my wife more than anything. I have been with her for seven years and I am constantly reminded of how wonderful she is by the stories I tell here (shows how special and unique she is) and by the compliments I get from everyone (you have no idea how many marriage proposals she gets). Having said that, I keep things from my wife. There are plenty of things I do not tell her. Well, maybe not plenty, but a few things. Why is that? Because I personally do not feel comfortable discussing things. It is completely independent of her, it is all me. So, her scrutiny of you may actually have nothing to do with you.


    You might not be the right person for her or you might not be the right person for her RIGHT NOW. Those are two completely different things. Why do people get together with some people and then break-up? Because they served a purpose at one time and do not anymore or have a void that they need. Conversely, how can you be friends with someone for a long time and then go out with them? Because at the time they did not have what you needed and now they do. Hmm, I am not sure I am saying that right because as I read it, I do not fully believe how I am writing it. I know what I mean, but there is a failure to communicate on my part :mamoru:


    Simply put, she is unable to see her problems right now or deal with them. The question you need to ask yourself is are you willing to wait until she is ready to deal with her issues (if ever)?



    One of the best therapies is talking about your problems. Hence why people make jokes that therapists don’t do anything but sit there and say ‘how does that make you feel’


    I suck(ed) at communicating. The only reason communication occurs (when something is wrong) in my relationship is because of Lovely. I don’t talk about my issues, feelings or problems. I bottle it up inside and deal with it on my own. Pisses Lovely off…plus it is very destructive and useless; but I still do it. See what I mean about understanding what is wrong with me but not listening.


    Hopefully I have been able to help. I don’t know if I am helpful or full of hot air…..

    Wow, that took a while!
     
  12. affende

    affende Resident 4X4 Elitest Prick

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    i have never been good at taking constructive criticism .... but with this relationship, it was easy to. this relationship is the single most valuable thing to me.

    i know she has a LOT to deal with right now and has over the last few years. she couldnt talk to even me about her parents relationship until about two years ago .... 5 years after it happened. i guess it is possible its just too much to deal with for her right now.

    i can understand that, definitely. i really want her to work through this issue for us ... and for herself.


    i would do anything to help her in what ever way is best for her to get over this. even if it means stepping out of the picture for a while.

    i definitely do that in uncomfortable situations, but i try very hard not to do that in a discussion / situation relating to our relationship. i have talked to my counselor and our pre-marital counselor extensively about my tendency to that in discussions about the relationship.

    guilty. i know i dont see all of my faults. if i did, i would be too close to perfect to be human. i would love to be able to see my faults, but i cant, unfortunately.

    that is exactly how i felt, and that is exactly how i reacted. I think you pinpointed a main problem with our relationship. her insecurity fed off of my reaction and my reaction fed off of her insecurity. vicious cycle ... impossible for us to break it on our own.

    i would like to help, but i guess that isnt really up to me.

    we have always agreed on this. the point where we no longer fight was the the point where we were in deep trouble. we never fought excessively until this last year ... it has nust been constant.

    i am similar. i try to tell her everything, but i do tend to bottle up my emotions and my feelings. i try not to, from my early childhood i learned showing your feelings was showing weakness (bullies) and i learned not to. i need to unlearn that.

    i know exactly what you mean .... our relationship started later than i wanted because she just wasnt ready for me ... so i waited until she was.

    i honestly feel, right now, that if i die 50 years from now waiting on her, i made the right decision and i wont ever regret making it.

    it makes me feel like poop :hs:

    guilty as charged. i do it too. i try my best to, but i do fail miserably sometimes.


    it has helped a lot. im buying you a plane ticket right now and you will be my personal counselor :rofl:

    want to move to Virginia? :x:

    indeed it did lol.
     
  13. Bubba Atlantis

    Bubba Atlantis New Member

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    No :p Vancouver is one of the most beautiful cities in the world....State of Virginia.....well it isn't :mamoru:

    You are welcome to move here though. If you can get over the depression of it raining all winter long, it is really nice here lol
     
  14. affende

    affende Resident 4X4 Elitest Prick

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    im depressed enough when its sunny and clear ... vancouver would be a suicide mission :rofl:
     
  15. Bubba Atlantis

    Bubba Atlantis New Member

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    It isn't too bad actually....It only gets bad when it rains for a month straight :eek3:

    outside of that, the rain is not continuous :rofl:
     
  16. affende

    affende Resident 4X4 Elitest Prick

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    a month of rain would have me strangling babies.
     
  17. Bruticus

    Bruticus half dead OT Supporter

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    Wow I'm really impressed that you could stay in a relationship like that long enough to be thinking about marriage. If a girlfriend seriously accuses me of cheating, well, lets just say it won't go down well (I'm not talking about violence here, just to be clear). She does that again and I'd probably be out. You're much more tolerant of someone questioning your character than I would be, particularly someone you are so intimate with and who is meant to know you well.

    Like you, I think cheating is one of the worst things you can do and to be accused of that would be horrible. Seems she has no trust in anyone, while this continues I don't think she is able to commit to a real relationship. She needs help before anything can work between you two :(

    Sorry dude, hope it works out :)
     
  18. affende

    affende Resident 4X4 Elitest Prick

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    it was difficult to hang on as long as i did. she is coming up tomorrow to talk about everything.

    though i dont ever do ultimatums, and react poorly to them myself, her choice will be

    a) admit she has a problem, get help, see a counselor, and if she makes progress in an year or so then we can try again

    or

    b) keep ignoring her problem and i leave.

    if she loves me like she says, i feel like it will be an easy choice. i cant take this anymore.
     
  19. Bruticus

    Bruticus half dead OT Supporter

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    Well in one sense that is an ultimatum, but you have to draw the line somewhere dude otherwise you'll be in this kind of emotional shit for years. Basically it's her choice, she decides to try and fix herself and your choice follows accordingly.

    Hope she does the right thing :bigthumb:
     
  20. affende

    affende Resident 4X4 Elitest Prick

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    well fucking fantastic. while i have been busting my ass to make ends meet and fix our relationship ... i find out she is a dirty fucking whore. she has been fucking soem other guy back home all the while telling me she wants to fix things.

    how is that for fucking irony?

    i swear to fuck, i will never trust again, on the off chance i live through this shit.

    you fucking god damn whore. you are no fucking better than your fucking father. i hope you burn in hell and i hipe what you did haunts you for fucking ever.

    i sweear i want to fucking die right now.
     
  21. affende

    affende Resident 4X4 Elitest Prick

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    i hope she burns in hell/
     
  22. razi

    razi New Member

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    this sort of thing happens surprisingly often. but yeah, kick her to the curb. If she wants to self-destruct, that's her deal, but she's not gonna bring you down with her. Next time you do talk to her, don't get mad, don't yell, don't call her names... just be cool and calm, tell her she needs help.
     
  23. chakup

    chakup Guest

    Trust me man- married 7.5 years, together 10. After multiple affairs and lies. she tells me she's trying and wants it to work- find out she's banging her company's accountant and getting all sweet with him. I know the pain, the hurt and the feeling of loss of trust. Hell she wanted to go stay with him last night- tried lieng abou it. and she has a bag packed to go there tonight. all while telling me she loves and wants to be with me- or doesn't, then does. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh fuck i know the feeling man.
     
  24. -=Likwid=-

    -=Likwid=-

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    how did you find out?

    and i'm having trust issues thanks to my last relationship too.
     
  25. affende

    affende Resident 4X4 Elitest Prick

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    we have been talking a few times a week .. and i knew she had met some new friends (she told me that) ... i knew they were guys, and i knew she hung out with them .... i really figured as much when she told me about her friends but i asked her if she had feelings for any of them and she said no. she started talking about one in particular more and more and i knew what was happening ... i reclarified that we were still exclusive to each other .. no one else at all ... and she agreed.

    one night she was supposed to call when she got home from the bar (im a sucker for still worrying about her driving) she calls at 430 am.

    the bars close at 1 am ... and she said they stayed open longer that night for some reason (virginia law fucked her ... last call is 1230 and every glass that has had alcohol in it has to be behind the bar / in the kitchen by 1 am .. no exceptions) ... i knew it was a load of shit.

    i asked if james (the guy she talked more and more about) had been out with her that night and she said yes ... i asked her bluntly if she had fucked him. she denied it and i reminded her that im not an idiot and i know bars close at 1am ... 3.5 hours is more than enough time to be an idiot.

    she finally caved and admitted that she fucked him.

    fucking whore.
     

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