GUN Training for the fight

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by ShackleMeNot, Oct 16, 2004.

  1. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    Going to the range, standing still and shooting at bullseyes is not training for anything other than standing still and shooting at bullseyes. If you stand still and punch a heavy bag 1000 times each morning you are probably going to be a pretty hard hitter but does that mean you can fight? Of course not. But too many gun owners have this fallacy in their heads that 50 rounds through their pistol sent down range means that they now have a set of defense skills that will translate to gun fighting skills.

    Here are the survival priorities:
    1. MINDSET
    2. Tactics
    3. Skill
    4. equipment

    How many posts on this board are about anything other than #4?
    What gun should I buy??? My new SKS rocks!!! What knife to carry? How do I get a machine gun? .308 rules and .223 sucks. Look at my new holster. 9mm vs. .357sig vs. .40 vs. .45. And on and on.

    Sometimes there is a post like, "How do I correct my [insert shooting problem]?" That's priority #3: Skill. The NRA has written volumes on how to shoot tiny groups with pistols while standing still. I'll save you all that reading. There are two "ninja" secrets to shooting pistols well: sight alignment and trigger control. Not breathing. Not stance. Not what sights you have. Not even grip. People want to make the skill of shooting pistols much harder than it actually is.

    How many threads have there been on Tactics? I sure can't remember very many. When should you do a tac reload in a fight? Should you learn to shoot on the move or one handed or with your off hand or while on your back? Do you need to be concerned with weapons retention and shooting from retention as most attacks happen at close contact distance? What are some good techniques to deescalate a defensive situation rather than cause an escalation in force? Should I scan 360 degrees after a fight?

    And then there's the number one survival priority: MINDSET. Training for the fight and not the match or the static range. Learning empty hand skills rather than relying only on tools. Staying in the fight after your gun stops working or you have already been shot or stabbed. Carrying a gun all day every day. In short, developing a warrior's mindset.

    What are your defense priorities?
     
  2. blkgs4

    blkgs4 New Member

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    I have an instructor that teaches me 1, 2, and 3; and 4 I can do on my own. I care to share 4, I don't care to share 1, 2, and 3; because in all honestly I'd rather not tell people that I train in one way or another. Its simply too much hassle. And also I'd rather just train for the upcoming IDPA shoot then all the stuff my instructor has me do.
     
  3. SS109

    SS109 3100 FPS OT Supporter

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    IDPA & ISPC can train you in some bad habits, but I think overall they help you become a lot better shooting under adrenalin pressure and increase your confidence.
     
  4. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    IPSC is a game. It only cares about pure shooting skill (#3) and equipment (#4). IDPA tries to be more "tactical" (#2) by adding in "failure to do right" and lip service to the use of cover and tac reloads, but ultimately it is a game as well. They should both be considered practice and not training and more importantly neither one stresses MINDSET in any appreciable way.
     
  5. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    I'm glad to hear your background and that you are interested in training. Thunder Ranch and Gunsite are well known and established schools with large fixed facilities costs and reputations and that's why they cost the big bucks. There are many, many regional and traveling training schools that teach two and three day classes for far less money all over the country. I would say $300 for two days is about the norm.

    In 2004 my school has taught classes in IL, PA, NC, CO, NY, AZ, TN and FL. It isn't just us. There are good schools teaching good classes just about everywhere.
     
  6. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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  7. Vermincelli

    Vermincelli Banned

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    GET OFF MY LAWN!
    Pretty much the same here. I have trained with local SWAT, spent years training as a BEA and LEO. There is so much more to discuss in these fields than a general forum would allow :)
     
  8. atomlowe

    atomlowe meh....member

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    I took a tactical course from Ernest Langdon.....learned an unbelievable amount. This guy is an amazing instructor and an incredible shooter. I'd recommend anyone take his course. There are several instructors for SIGARMS, but if you have the chance to have Ernest as an instructor, take it. He's no bullshit and he teaches real world tactics.


    http://www.langdontactical.com/
     
  9. spyder007

    spyder007 Bаnned bу Ѕuреr Μоdеrаtоrs

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    Not a bad post. I just had this discussion today with a bunch of law enforcement explorers.
     
  10. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    my two best friends train with Super Dave every time he's in town here, and i get my training from the two of them. it's not the same as being in a class, even if we have a great range in which to practice. hopefully soon, i'll be able to take a weekend off work and get him to come down here to teach another carbine class. one i'll actually be able to go to. he's teaching a pistol class here soon. i also missed the ken hackathorn class last time he was here. areed needs to get in here. i know he's had some training from super dave.
     
  11. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    S. Dave Harrington.
     
  12. Platinum_Thunder

    Platinum_Thunder Reliability for life and liberty

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    Super Dave can never lose

    Neither can Tom Givens
     
  13. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    Tom Givens has had a lot of students involved in shootings. I think he averages 3 or 4 each year. Part of the reason is he teaches a ton of CCW courses so he cycles hundreds of students through his classes. The other reason is he teaches mostly in Memphis and if there's one place you are probably going to have to shoot someone eventually it's Memphis.
     
  14. Platinum_Thunder

    Platinum_Thunder Reliability for life and liberty

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    Exactly :mamoru:

    He should franchise in St Louis, Miami, and Detroit. :o
     
  15. areed89

    areed89 New Member

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    Dude, you work for a reputable company that's run by a guy who committed no crimes when he was LE. This makes me wonder why you'd plug a guy who is a liar, and a thief? Good training is good training, but there are guys out there who know their shit and can sit through Sunday morning church with a straight face. I also have issues with any guy claiming he's a gunfight "ace" when he includes stray dogs in his kill list....:nono: As for instructors who key in hard on mindset, Tom Givens, Jim Higginbotham, and Super Dave Harrington are all tops on my list. I've never trained with the company ShackleMeNot works for, but know from people who know that they are top notch. There are guys that may be able to bring your shooting skills up a bit better, but most of those guys know dick about fighting . There are no words to describe what Super Dave can teach you, he is the alpha male of alpha males and any opportunity to train with him should not be missed. Also I feel I should say again, Gabe is a crook no two ways about it and I'm surprised that guys like Givens, and yourself still plug him.
     
  16. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    Well, I appreciate your perspective but I have to disagree.

    First I need to state that I find myself in the awkward position of defending someone who isn't here to defend himself. Add to that I'm defending someone whose business is in direct competition with the one that employees me. But I think it is worth the words and effort to write that I don't think what Gabe did or didn't do in reference to his charge and guilty plea for workman's comp fraud has much bearing on his ability as a trainer.

    Gabe Suarez's legal issues were more complex than most people understand and I'm not so sure the truth about his conviction will ever be fully known. The pressure placed on him with the charges against his wife put him in a tough spot. Was he right to teach while on disability? I really don't know.

    Most important to students should be are Gabe's classes are worth the cost of tuition. I recommend him because I believe that they are.

    The bottom line is I want to see people train SOMEWHERE. From us. From Frontsite, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Rangemaster, Tactical Defense Institute, Options for Personal Security, Blackwater, Mid-South, FAS, Insights, LFI, NRA and yes, even Suarez International.

    Of course, I think students should take classes from us first. After all nobody does it better than we do. :rofl:
     
  17. areed89

    areed89 New Member

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    S,
    Totally understood, keep in mind I have never thought he was a bad trainer it's just a personal thing. Innocent people don't cop a plea. Innocent cops don't allow themselves to end up in LA county jail without a fight unless there is a reason. As you've pointed out there are plenty of other alternatives out there for me, and I've used most of the ones mentioned. I'm not always petty though. John Scarborough hit on my girlfriend once in Memphis as she came to pick me up, I didn't hate OPSfor that, nor do I hate TRI because of that:) I'm sure we'll meet someday and we can discuss all sorts of good stuff over a beer, or broccoli or whatever:rofl: BTW have Yeager ask around the sandbox for opinions of Super Dave Harrington, I'm sure a few cats there will have some good info.
     
  18. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    hey areed, inbound PM.
     
  19. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    One other thing I wanted to mention. My list of schools is in no way complete. I did it from memory so there are some schools I didn't think of at the time that should be on there and I included some that I wouldn't be in a hurry to attend.
     
  20. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    You need to rethink your view of the legal system in this country. It is far from perfect. There are plenty of guilty-as-sin criminals who have walked out of court rooms and yes, there are innocent people who have done time from crimes they did not commit. Sometimes you get put into a bind and you have to make difficult choices. I think Gabe was in that spot once the DA filed FELONY charges against Gabe's wife. Part of his plea agreement was that his wife wouldn't face prosecution and the felony charges against him would be dropped allowing him to continue to own firearms and conduct training.

    Again, I'm not saying what Gabe was doing was right but I don't think a misdemeanor plea for workman's comp fraud should disqualify him as a training choice.
     
  21. areed89

    areed89 New Member

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    I can dig that, and would've eventually taken a class from him myself. It's just a personal ethics thing and I won't continue to push it and drive the thread off course any more. I don't want you to think I've got a cut and dry vision of our legal system though, not at all. I just know enough about what he's done to make that judgement. Sorry for pushing the thread off course, and thanks for bringing up a good topic in a place where people need to hear it.
     
  22. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    No problem. I respect how you spend your training dollars. I also respect that you actually understand what I was trying to say with this thread. There is a statistic I've heard that only 1% of shooters will ever take a class. Thank you for being one in that 1%.
     
  23. Platinum_Thunder

    Platinum_Thunder Reliability for life and liberty

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    I am an areed89 student. Does that count?
     
  24. areed89

    areed89 New Member

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    I hear that guy is the shit :eek3:
     
  25. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    yeah, i've heard that too. :fawk:
     

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