SRS Tough Love = Rationalised Callousness And Passive Aggression?

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by psilocyborg, Feb 13, 2008.

  1. psilocyborg

    psilocyborg Guest

    You always here about "tough love" be used against addicts etc. but the people almost always continue the behavior as soon as they get out of rehab or jail. It seems like the family and friends of the person are just venting the resentment they have for the person and deluding themselves into thinking they are helping. Blackmailing someone into spending a certain amount of time in rehab (like on "Intervention") just puts the addict through hell and the ones that do make it are the ones that come back mindless religious fanatics that have replaced the drug with rediculous fundamentlism. Forcing someone to go to rehab when the are not ready/ do not want to just seems like a waste that family and friends use to get off; it's sickening. I am aware that in some uncommon cases it may work, but an addict really needs to make the choice themself.
     
  2. ledzep73

    ledzep73 New Member

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    You can't force someone to get help. Lurker.
     
  3. psilocyborg

    psilocyborg Guest

    You can blackmail them into going to rehab like I said you idiotic swine.
     
  4. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    I would tend to agree that it is very common for those forced into rehab to simply "fade the heat" then resume their destructive habits.
    Sometimes it is as simple as that....other times, the family members are really doing what they feel is best for their loved one.
    I agree blackmailing anyone is a bad idea. While I agree it's common that many people relapse after leaving treatment, there are those addicts/alcoholics that find this to be the wake up call they needed to get and stay sober. There are a lot of them like this.....they can usually be found in the rooms of AA.
    What is one to do when they have watched, usually for many years, their loved one descend deeper and deeper into the grips of addiction?? It's not easy to watch and it's not easy to simply "write off" those troublesome relatives that just don't get it.

    Yeah some family members simply want to get back at the pain the alcoholic has caused them, this isn't always the case. Oh sure, from the alcoholic's perspective it will seem like that's all the family wants to do. However, from the family's perspective.....they are doing what they think is the best thing to help their loved one. More often than not, they are trying to help.
    It's not at all uncommon for someone to be forced into rehab, against their will, then while there....they learn about the disease and surrender to the process of recovery. It very, very common.....just go to any AA meeting and you're likely to meet many people like this.

    I agree that the addict and alcoholic must ultimately make the choice to either blot out the intolerableness of their condition or seek spiritual help. How one gets to that "jumping off place" isn't as important as their willingness to surrender and try to find a different way to live.....a way without drugs/alcohol.

    Sobering up is not easy and very often it's not fun. However, it does get better....very often quite quickly....and living life sober can be extraordinarily fun. I used to think I was just going to be bored and miserable all my life, once I got sober but nothing could be further from the truth.

    Your post makes me think that your family forced you into rehab against your will. If that's the case, I would hope that you would stop looking at HOW you got to treatment and instead focus on what they're trying to teach you about addicts/alcoholics.
     
  5. k0in b4hd

    k0in b4hd New Member

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    the FDA doesnt even consider alcohol a drug, while if you smoke pot, youre a criminal.
     
  6. psilocyborg

    psilocyborg Guest

    I hate how people pretend ethanol isn't just as bad as any illegal drug or worse. Saying "addicts/alcoholics" or "drugs/alcohol" doesn't even make sense. I know I'm going off topic but no other drug definetively can cause dementia and has a potential fatal withdrawal. (Benzodiazapines can have fatal withdrawal though).
     
  7. i killed tupac

    i killed tupac New Member

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    people serious about recovery feel the exact same way.
     
  8. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    These 2 sentences seem contradictory. Explain please.

    I say "addicts/alcoholics" and I use "drugs/alcohol" interchangeably in various conversations because they are so similar. In fact, many treatment centers focus on chemical dependency because that removes the "I'm not a druggie" attitude that some have upon entering treatment.

    Not only that, rarely in a forum like this, is it beneficial to draw those types of distinctions. In the rooms of AA, I'm very strict on that tho because thats one of the places that I consider to be the "front lines".
    Wait, is this statement applicable to ethanol? Because if so, I disagree. Heroine and other drugs can have very serious side effects/withdrawal.
     
  9. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    :rofl: you can't be serious with this post.

    Are you trying to imply that because one uses drugs/alcohol or addict/alcoholic interchangeably, IN SPEECH ONLY (not actual usage of the chemicals), that they aren't serious about recovery? Surely you can see how idiotic that is.
     
  10. psilocyborg

    psilocyborg Guest

    I meant an alcoholic is an addict and alcohol is a drug so you don't need to also say the alcohol specific term because it is redundent.
     
  11. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    Oh ok...guess I misunderstood your post.
     
  12. i killed tupac

    i killed tupac New Member

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    i just meant that alcohol is a drug
    i dont care what people call it
     
  13. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    Oh OK.

    In that case :werd: lol

    Damn I'm misunderstanding everyone today.
     
  14. psilocyborg

    psilocyborg Guest

    The thing with 12-step programs however, is that they do not increase one's likelyhood of success. It is a known fact that there is a 5% success rate with a 12-step program, and a 5% success rate without it (12-step programs, of course, state much higher success rates). The few that do succeed tend to stay, making it seem like it is very effective. I do believe that 12-step programs are great if you believe that is way for you, but to be forced into a religious cult-like organisation is rediculous when secular options are available. Also, one does not need spirituality of any kind to overcome an addiction, but if it works for some (and I'm sure it does) then so be it.
     
  15. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    IMO the problem revolves more around the gathering of those statistics. Why? Because the definition of an alcoholic is a personal one. There is no objective standard. So while one person may call themselves an alcoholic, the program accepts that they are....then if they go back to drinking, it's easy to say...SEE the program didn't work for this person when really the issue is, they aren't an alcoholic but a heavy drinker.

    There's also another issue and that's the tourists. There are a lot of people that enjoy the fellowship of AA and they'll come for the parties, speaker meetings, after meeting events and all that. They really get into the socialization associated with AA and have fun doing so. Yet they don't ever work the steps or only work them half-heartedly. When they drink again, they say, "AA didn't work for me" when in reality, they didn't work the program.

    One of the difficult things about alcoholism is that most drunks are very opinionated and don't want to be told to do anything at all, much less the difficult work of the 12 steps. So everything in AA is a suggestion. If someone doesn't want the help, that's fine but they're likely to drink again.

    Hang out in AA for any length of time and you'll regularly hear about people that did do only the steps that are easy or that don't really push them too hard. They don't ever dig deep, they don't ever try to their best to "thoroughly follow out path".

    There are a multitude of things that contribute to the "well know facts" to which you're referring and many people simply look at the stats and say, "See AA doesn't work" when the issues are far, far more complex than those numbers indicate.

    There's no guaranteed cure for alcoholism. It's a difficult and complex disease and AA has proven over the years to work for a great many people. There are those that it doesn't work for but to discredit the entire program of AA like you're doing is irresponsible.

    You seem to have a problem with AA but the facts are, it makes a HUGE difference in many people's lives. I'm sorry that it hasn't had that kind of impact on your life.

    AA as a cult is laughable. It does not even remotely resemble anything like a cult.
     
  16. psilocyborg

    psilocyborg Guest

    The 12-Step Cult demands total acceptance of their doctrine as the ONLY cure for alcoholism, and members are often kept in line by shame. It is riddled with thiestic bullshit, "god this, god that" and you insist it is not religious (waits for hollow semantic arguement). Ironically enough, your zealotry is the quintessential example of how it is a cult. It does not matter what evidence you are presented with, you will always claim that it is biased etc. and I'm sure you'll simply claim that that is actually the case with me!:o
     
  17. undirected

    undirected Guest

    I would be much more inclined to agree with and support the basic points you're making here if you would consider arguing the issue a little more objectively and a little less emotionally.
     
  18. psilocyborg

    psilocyborg Guest

    My points are still clear and my arguement sound. I know you agree with them. I couldn't care less whether you choose to "support" them.
     
  19. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    You want to take a long post of mine and respond with inflammatory, incorrect and emotional 3 sentences then expect for anyone to take your posts seriously? meh....

    Less hyperbole, more rational thought.

    I fully expect you to skim over this post like you seem to have done my other posts because you feel your arguments are sound but they aren't.

    AA isn't a cult and doesn't demand anything from their members. It's all suggestions. Anyone is free to keep calling themselves a member of AA and not do shit. Noone is going to kick them out of AA, ever. They won't get brought before a review board EVER...why? Because it doesn't exist.

    We have no reason to "keep our members in line" because we know that alcoholism is a horrible disease that destroys lives....what more motivation could there be? As one of my drug and alcohol counselors said once, "I have a monster for an ally" and that's really true.

    We also have a saying in AA, "If you want to drink, that's your business. If you want to stop, that's our business." So feel free to keep drinking and going to meetings and calling yourself a member. Feel free to do all this and NOT work the steps. We don't care because if that's what you want to do you won't want help stopping. Ok.....but if/when you find stopping is difficult or impossible and you want help, we're here to help.

    AA is not a cult and doesn't demand anything from it's members. All of the 12 steps are just suggestions. We're just telling you what worked for us and suggesting you do the same as we did......millions have and they have had success in the program.

    RE: God - there are many references to God but I find it hysterical that people think this means it's a religious organization. You like so many people hear the name God and IMMEDIATELY assume this means the christian God and it can't apply to ANYTHING ELSE. Way to really use that gray matter between your ears.

    Religions are filled with rituals, songs, teachings, doctrines, beliefs and religions often DO demand things from their members. AA is nothing like this. In fact, there are quite a few members that are atheist or agnostic.....great! They're welcome also. There's also a lot of people that believe in Buddha, Mohammad or any other figurehead of their religion. They are all welcome and able to participate in AA. There are others that believe that "all roads lead to the same God" regardless of what we call that God.

    AA is the ONLY organization that I've ever found that is so accepting of all different ideas about religious/spiritual beliefs. AA accepts everyone and won't try to change your beliefs.

    I know that individual member may become overzealous and try to convert people to their preferred beliefs but AA doesn't not encourage nor support this at all! Many of us come to AA sick with a great many things including religious issues. It often takes time to work all this stuff out.

    My zealotry? :rofl: I'm not a zealot at all....I just don't like people like you spreading lies and misinformation to people that visit this forum. They deserve to know the truth, not emotional hyperbole.

    I'm not saying your information is biased just wrong.
     
  20. psilocyborg

    psilocyborg Guest

    Right on que with the semantic arguement. References to a god or diety are inherently religious. It does not have to be a Christian god, try paying attention to what I type. Your references to my intelligence are pleassently ironic.

    Of course the 12-Step Cult will accept members of any other religion just as any church will accept people of other religions if they want to go to and paticipate in church activities. You blame any failure of the 12-Step Cult on the members themselves, rather than the program. Although it is obviously the members' fault in many cases that is not always true. Maybe your hysteria is why you keep thinking that the religiousness of 12-Steps Cults is "hysterical".

    "Millions" have had success on their own too, since the overall 12-Step success rate is same, according to their figures, as doing it own your own, 5%. Your zealotry is made evident by the fact that you jump on anyone saying anything against 12-Step Cults. Oh, but you are just informing them on the "truth" right?

    You make blanket statements that people are "just wrong" followed by rhetoric. Like all cult members you now attempt to vilify me, an opponent of your cult, with more hollow blanket statements. Sure "emotional hyperbole" sounds more clever than "you're just wrong" but it's just another way to rationalise believing I'm wrong without sufficient evidence. Make sure you go back to english class before you make more references to literary devices.

    I find it interesting that you seem to think one would consider themselves a zealot if they were one. That is not the case with zealotry. Someone who has been brainwashed obviously cannot make rational judgements about themselves. A zealot will never believe that they are a zealot, what sence would that make? They are just "correct", right?:o
     
  21. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    Personal attack #1 = lame
    Try paying attention to what I type. I listed a number of things that are present in religions which aren't present in AA. And if choose to call my higher power god, this in no way implies any sort of religion.
    Wow, you must have attended some pretty open churches. I haven't. Churches are more like cults than AA. If you don't believe the way they believe, they'll kick you out. If you want to join the church, you have to go through membership classes. If you want to participate as a member, you have to do these things before you can. This bears ZERO resemblance to AA.
    So by your own admission, the fault many times lies with the member themselves but many is a subjective term. One could easily say most times.

    I'm not saying AA will work for everyone....in fact, I've repeatedly said that. Perhaps you've missed those other posts.....maybe not in this thread but in others.
    personal attack #2....more lameness

    And what I find hysterical is your incorrect characterization of AA.
    I disagree. Throughout recorded history alcoholics were very often locked up in prison or insane asylums. I heard one program on Discovery Channel that claimed something like 2/3 of inmates in prison today committed their crimes while under the influence of alcohol or other drugs. This is surprisingly high number and I would suggest that many of these might benefit from the program.
    I don't "jump" on anyone. I respond when I have something to say. I'm not going to sit back and ignore inflammatory posts like yours when I know the difference.

    I'm not sure why you're so angry towards AA....perhaps you should tells us whats the source of all this hatred?

    You see my post as rhetoric? uh ok....looks like you skimmed over it again.
    :rofl:
    Personal attack #3 - knock it off...it's unnecessary

    I'm not vilifying you at all just responding to your misinformation. Are your ideas really so fragile that they can't stand the harsh light of critical thought or rational debate?
    Your wrong not because of emotional hyperbole but because you've twisted things around and made implications and accusations that are simply not true. Your belief in these un-truths does not make them true.
    sigh....personal attack #4....make sure you stick to arguments that address the subject matter not the person. It's lame.
    I find it interested that you think that just because someone believes something they are a zealot.

    I also find it interesting that once someone learns something about themselves or some topic that they A) immediately become a zealot B) and incapable of rational analysis.

    You're obviously free to believe whatever you want to believe about AA and it's clear that no matter how rational my arguments, no matter how sound my debunking of your claims, you choose to resort to personal attacks and dismiss all my points as zealotry. This is not conducive to mature discussions and you really should knock it off.
     
  22. psilocyborg

    psilocyborg Guest

    Fine, instead of "religion" I will use the term mythology, since it is more specific and I am referring to it anyway. If you think belief in a higher power isn't mythology, well then I guess it doesn't matter what anyone says to you, you'll be locked in your own head generating responses indefinitely to anyone who knows better.

    Church policies differ, 12-Step Cults being open helps them gain members, that is why they do it.

    It doesn't matter whether or not you agree. Many alcholics get non-12-Step help or get clean on there own. 5% isn't high but it is the same as with the help of 12-Step programs. Yes, most fail regardless because that is the nature of addiction, it tends to suck ass.

    The mythological content is the source of my hatred. And my ideas with stand strong regardless of what you doublethink about them.

    You seem to have done some skimming over and perverting of what I said yourself. A zealot cannot make rational judgements about their own zealotry by definition. A zealot is not a person who learned something (more skimming and twisting on your part), rather, it is a person who has complete indoctrination into a belief system and who's mind cannot be changed regardless of the rationality of the arguements presented to them. They will simply call them untruths, and think that their own arguements are always perfectly rational.;)
     
  23. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    My belief in my HP comes from many years of experience. Yet here we are, arguing about whether or not God or some other being actually exists or not. This has been argued for centuries and the arguments generally fall along the lines of the following:
    1) believers - talk about having faith and knowing things from empirical evidence, actually feeling something different, etc.
    2) non-belivers - talk about everything originating from within, there's no way that a HP would care or even intervene in our lives, etc.

    My experience has been that these arguments are never resolved because as my mom likes to say, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".

    So how do people come to believe in a HP and move from non-believers to believers? They've had experiences that helped change and shape their views.
    You know, I actually used to believe that AA needed members and this is why the definition of an alcoholic applied to me. However, nothing could be further from the truth.

    AA doesn't need members nor do we need dues....it will go on even if there are very few members.

    You keep referring to them as 12 step cults but that's not accurate no matter how many times you repeat it. Cults have many common characteristics and AA doesn't have these. There's no figurehead leader, there's no dogma to conform with severe consequences to being cast out should you disobey, there's no demand for loyalty....none of these things exist in AA.
    I've never once disagreed with this.
    EDIT: Actually my only disagreement with this is in using the term alcoholic. This term is abused by so many in life. It's used by everyone to describe anyone that drinks more than them. It's used by many people to classify a heavy drinker as someone with the disease of alcoholism when they don't actually have the disease.

    One of the reasons this occurs is because of lack of knowledge of the disease. Many of my drinking buddies, when I was active, claimed that they were alcoholics but they were able to stop without AA. My argument would be that they weren't alcoholics in the same sense of the word as I was....it could even be argued that they aren't real alcoholics and instead were heavy drinkers.

    This is also the problem with the statistics you keep quoting. The definition of an alcoholic is difficult.
    You conveniently keep quoting this 5% number while avoiding the repetition of it's caveat.....that obtaining accurate statistics is extremely difficult because AA does not keep a roll of it's members nor does it conduct surveys to see how they think about a certain topic.

    So while that number is nice and convenient to your argument, it's easily debunked with the caveat.
    Wait....so you're so pissed at AA because of the idea of a higher power?
    This sentence makes no sense. Doublethink?
    I have?? I'm separating every portion and responding to ALL of your post. Please explain how I'm skimming over and perveting what you're saying?? My disagreement is not a perversion of your thoughts but more a counter argument to what you think.
    The thing is, you haven't made rational arguments. You haven't explained your points fully nor have you provided supporting ideas as to why they are in fact true.....or why you believe them to be true.

    No instead what you have done is resort to emotion and personal attacks, provided untrue labels for things, then claimed that they are true. I fail to see how that is a rational argument.

    I'm not a zealot at all. I have however seen first hand how the disease of addiction can warp people's perceptions of reality. I once had this warped perception of reality and AA helped me straighten that out. This new perception is sound and stable and it's not changed simply because someone calls me a zealot or claims my indoctrination in complete or any such other non-sense.

    No....what I know is that when I was still drinking, I thought differently and all I was able to accomplish was to keep on drinking. I know the truth about my disease now and I know how it can warp perceptions. When I hear untruths being spoken that are similar to how I used to believe, I speak up to hopefully help others.

    Everyone is free to believe what they want. Should compelling evidence be advanced that will support and challenge my beliefs, I'll look at them critically and if I believe I've previously made a mistake, I'll adjust, apologize and adapt. However, nothing presented in this thread so far has come close to convincing me of anything.

    In fact, what seems more clear is that you really dislike AA intensely. That's fine I have no desire to convert you or anyone else for that matter. However, your explanation of this dislike is the mythology of AA.....that's all you've said....as if that's self explanatory...it isn't.

    If you really want to deal with your dislike of AA, explain in detail why you feel this way and let's discuss those things. No not so we can get more members but so I can more fully understand your frame of reference.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2008
  24. psilocyborg

    psilocyborg Guest

    What you have said about the mythology is beside the point. You cannot "experience" a god, it is just a sad rationalization about some experience that you convince yourself is somehow spiritual. No diety can be percieved in any way no matter what you convince yourself, your mom's quote is quite appropriate. How did you "experience" your diety?

    The openess is to gain members, what you said is again beside the point. Even if it doesn't need mambers that is beside the point.

    The figurehead is your higher power and the dogma is the 12-Step dogma. You can claim there is none all you want, that's bullshit. They do not force people to do things in an illagal way but it is shame based. One could at least logically say it is cult-like.

    How convienient of the Cult to not take roll or conduct proper surveys, eh? They leave that grey area, just by chance?

    The fact that they deemed mythological beliefs necessary to success is what I absolutely hate. Some even say "your cat etc. (random noun) can be your higher power if you want", giving the impression of freedom. I don't know if you are like that but success does not require mythology.

    The ignorant simpleton does not understand my reference to George Orwell's novel, 1984. That is a reason why your condescending tones are so ironic.

    You made claims about my definition of zealotry that were incorrect, I clearly stated that yet you somehow missed it.

    No matter how many times YOU claim MY arguements are untrue and irrational it doesn't make that true. It doesn't matter how much you want it to be true either. Your broken-record stance on rationality is just circular.
     
  25. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    You speak with such certainty about your beliefs while at the same time dismissing mine.

    How I experience my diety is quite varied and personal. It's likely that someone with your beliefs would not understand and given your past proclivity for personal attacks and skimming over posts, I'll save myself the time.
    No it's not beside the point. It's directly in contradiction to your points. Stop being dismissive.
    The problem that you fail to realize is that this figurehead is different or can be different for everyone in the program. Nooone is forced to believe anything about a HP.
    What you are missing is the fact that you can do anything you want, including continue drinking, and still call yourself a member of AA. You can still attend functions, you can still attend meetings, you can still do all of that and still be a member.

    You try that shit in a cult and they'll boot your ass out so fast it'll make your head spin.

    Again....AA bears NO resemblance to a cult in anyway.

    Any shame you feel is entirely self created.
    No one cannot. It's bears ZERO resemblance to a cult.

    You keep saying it is but it isn't. What are your definitions of a cult? You seriously need to research this before responding because you've clearly shown a misunderstanding of what is and is not a cult already in this thread.
    :rofl:

    Conspiracy theorist??

    Yeah and JFK is still alive and the govt is holding aliens in Roswell and all that shit huh?
    Well you're correct that you can believe whatever you want in AA. The idea is that alcoholism is a disease that is much bigger than the individual and can't be sorted out buy the individual alone. The idea is that a higher power does for us what we can't do by ourselves.

    Yes I find the ideas of a door knob or a cat to be silly ideas of a HP FOR ME ONLY. If it helps the other person get and stay sober, fuck it....who am I to say that it's not their HP? noone. Whatever works for them is fine with me.
    More personal attacks huh?

    I'm not ignorant and I'm not a simpleton....ask anyone that knows me. Way to be dismissive of contradicting points of view instead of discussing them logically.

    How old are you??

    Be specific.
    :rofl:
     

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