LGBT The Pope's death and its relevance to homosexuals

Discussion in 'Lifestyle' started by cedric, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. cedric

    cedric I don't have a contract

    Joined:
    May 9, 2004
    Messages:
    88,516
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    San Francisc:noes:
    I'm kinda surprised nobody started a thread like this since Pope John Paul II died. Anyway, when I started seeing how people were making threads about it in the OT forum, I thought it might be something we could discuss here.

    I can't say that I'm saddened by his passing, but I won't rejoice at it either. The man actively condemned homosexuality as evil in addition to other practices such as abortion. In fact, I read more than one article saying that he was the most conservative Pope in recent memory.

    I'm not catholic, so I his death really has no more impact on my life than the death of total stranger. However, anyone with such a tremendous amount of influence and who uses it to discriminate against us will immediately find themselves on my bad side, especially when their reasoning is religion-based.

    There's some bad news that goes along with this though. Throughout his papacy, John Paul II filled the vatican council with like-minded conservatives, so it's likely that whoever follows him won't exactly be liberal in comparison.

    What does this mean for us? Well, if you're not catholic, it probably won't have a direct impact on your daily life. But it's not exactly helping our cause that an institution with such power is going around telling everyone that our lifestyle is unnatural and evil.

    Thoughts, anyone? :hsd:
     
  2. Praetor

    Praetor Guest

    His belief on liberty>His belief on homosexuality

    His legacy liberated millions of individuals all across Eastern Europe and ultimately destroyed Communism.

    Whichever article you read is a joke, because this Pope is one of the most progressive Popes the Vatican has seen. He has bridged Muslims, Christians and Jews on a level like no other Pope in history. He made sure that anti-Semitism is now considered the greatest sin of all time. He was always on the side of peace and always spoke against wars.

    The only reason why you consider him conservative is because you happen to be on the side of humanity which religion does not appreciate. Abortion is wrong and should be outlawed. Stem cell research is wrong as well. I could not agree with the Pope more on that. I don't however agree with him that homosexuality is evil or unethical.

    You gotta remember, we're talking about the Vatican here. A religious monarchial institution. You can't expect Liberals to be appointed and make decisions there.

    By the way cedric, the Vatican does not have as much power as you believe. The Vatican is only a symbol of Catholics around the globe. It has no power politically nor economically. One United States Senator has more control over world's issue than all the Popes combined.

    He was a great man, spoke 16 languages and was a leader of 1.3 billion individuals. We can only dream to be like him.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2005
  3. bioyuki

    bioyuki Ich habe Angst

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2001
    Messages:
    54,454
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    You can't view John Paul II's views on homosexuality as a one-dimensional thing embodied in "he condemened gays". On the contrary, the Pope tempered his views as exemplified by his landmark 1987 visit to San Francisco during the crux of the AIDS crisis. Never did he say anything to the respects of "AIDS is the wrath of God on homosexuals", on the contrary his views ameliorated those of right wing Conservative religious groups, such as the Southern Baptists.

    The September 18th, 1987 headline for the SF Chronicle read, "He Vists Bridge, Embraces AIDS Patients" and did a lot in the public light. He could have easily ignored the gay community in San Francisco and condemned them but he did the exact opposite. While it wasn't exactly a glowing love for homosexuality, his actions must be put in the context of his rather conservative papacy.

    I think the Pope's attitudes are best put by Don Lattin, the Chron's Religion Writer:

    In 1987, some U.S. religious leaders -- including the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination -- had suggested that AIDS might be an expression of God's wrath upon homosexuals.

    Meanwhile, gay leaders upset about the Catholic Church's views on homosexuality had promised big protests when the pope came to San Francisco.

    So there I was, standing face to face with the vicar of Christ, both of us holding onto the back of an airline seat as we barreled down through turbulence toward Miami.

    "Your holiness," I said. "Many people are dying of AIDS in San Francisco, many of them homosexual men ... ."

    "Terrible. Terrible," the pope said, interrupting my question.

    "I will visit a group of AIDS victims in the basilica in San Francisco," John Paul continued. "The church is doing all that is possible to heal and especially to prevent the disease with its moral teachings."

    The pope tried to walk by to the next reporter. Before he could, I asked, "Some people say God is punishing homosexuals with AIDS. How do you see God's hand in this disease?"

    The pope stopped and looked me straight in the eye.

    "It is not easy to know the intentions of God himself," John Paul said.

    He paused for a moment, fingering the gold crucifix dangling from his neck.

    "God is a great mystery, but we know that he is justice, he is mercy, and he is love."
     
  4. RenaultFreak

    RenaultFreak OMG

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2002
    Messages:
    88,686
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    CCS, VE
    I agree with Galor, this Pope was very progressist and while the whole church is still very opposed to homosexuality this guy helped to relieve the pressure in many ways, maybe because you don't feel the direct impact you can't see the subject like others. He worked extremely hard to fight communism and always took science very seriously, something most Popes never did.
     
  5. RedGoober4Life

    RedGoober4Life New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    DTW
    It means a whole lot of nothing to me.

    For one, the pope was 84 and from a completely different time. I don't find it surprising he felt this way.

    Second, he was a devout Christian. They aren't exactly the most pro-homosexual/pro-aborotion people. This is the catholic church, they don't exactly embrace change.

    Third, I like the Pope's hat. :wtc:
     
  6. cedric

    cedric I don't have a contract

    Joined:
    May 9, 2004
    Messages:
    88,516
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    San Francisc:noes:
    I'll admit that the articles I read were probably biased, but I still don't agree with his (or the catholic church's) stance on many things: abortion and stem cell research being two of them (that's a seperate issue though). Undoubtably, he did great things. He wouldn't have been Pope if he couldn't.

    What it comes down to is that it bothers me when a person or instituation adopts a stance on something that impacts others that really has no direct effect on themselves, regardless of their justification.

    I understand that the Vatican has little to no economic or political power, but they do have a tremendous amount of influence on the faith of catholics world-wide, and that can be just as significant to those people.

    Oh, and his hat was a little too phallic for my liking. :hsugh:
     
  7. RedGoober4Life

    RedGoober4Life New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2003
    Messages:
    3,859
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    DTW
    But they think homosexuals do have an effect on themselves...eep.
     
  8. NOVAJock

    NOVAJock Modded & Underrated

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2002
    Messages:
    15,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Nowhere in particular
    Actually Cedric, it's ironic you started this thread. I was going to start the exact same thread here, but havent' been here in a while because I've been too busy. I've been wondering if the passing of the Pope won't be a good thing for homosexuals. Hopefully, with the next pope in succession, he'll be more open minded and up with the times.
     
  9. NOVAJock

    NOVAJock Modded & Underrated

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2002
    Messages:
    15,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Nowhere in particular
    That is completely incorrect. The Vatican, has much more power than you would ever imagine.
     
  10. Praetor

    Praetor Guest

    Explain to me the kind of power it has, please.
     
  11. cedric

    cedric I don't have a contract

    Joined:
    May 9, 2004
    Messages:
    88,516
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    San Francisc:noes:
    Power isn't limited to the economy or politics. Control people's faith and you control them.
     
  12. Praetor

    Praetor Guest

    The control you're speaking of still didn't stop people in the Netherlands, Belgium and other nations to approve of homosexual civil unions and even marriages, did it?
     
  13. cedric

    cedric I don't have a contract

    Joined:
    May 9, 2004
    Messages:
    88,516
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    San Francisc:noes:
    There are always exceptions to every rule. I still don't agree that the Vatican is as powerless as you suggest.
     
  14. Wolf

    Wolf No one plans to take the path that brings you lowe

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2003
    Messages:
    105,186
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Austin, TX
  15. NOVAJock

    NOVAJock Modded & Underrated

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2002
    Messages:
    15,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Nowhere in particular
    http://christianprogress.com/15.htm


     
  16. Sam Gamgee

    Sam Gamgee Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right. OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
    Messages:
    78,919
    Likes Received:
    64
    Location:
    Western MA
    I read that the candidates for the papacy (the cardinals) all have even more strict ideas/ideals about homosexuality and the Bible.

    So, I see a worse picture ahead (if that's even possible at this point)
     
  17. coma

    coma New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2004
    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    0
    He was slow to act upon the priest/boy scandal (as were others such as the despicable Bernard Law). Seems to me that pedophilia is rather more important than the "sin" of homosexuality.
     
  18. Praetor

    Praetor Guest

    Even that article shows what I've known for all this time. The Vatican can only align itself with other churches and spread messages around the globe that homosexuality is wrong. The Vatican has no parliamentary power in which it can propose a bill or amendment which would ban all homosexual behaviors and marriages. Western nations clearly understand the importance of the separation between church and state, which once again, limits the power of any religious institution. If this was Saudi Arabia or any other theocracy, then I'd be worried.
     
  19. NOVAJock

    NOVAJock Modded & Underrated

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2002
    Messages:
    15,260
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Nowhere in particular
    Regardless, your statement above is not accurate.
     
  20. CoCo

    CoCo ...is a Queer Don!! OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Messages:
    12,343
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Maryland ; the land of Mary's...
    ...Pope John Paul II was one of the best, most progressive Pope's in the history of the Papacy. I would elaborate, but I simply don't feel like it. ;)
     
  21. Praetor

    Praetor Guest

    That is my point from the beginning.
     

Share This Page