MIL The Perils of Counterinsurgency: Russia's War in Chechnya

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Peyomp, Jun 6, 2005.

  1. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/webform/intlsec/29.3 pdfs/Kramer.pdf

    The Perils of Counterinsurgency: Russia's War in Chechnya

    Its a PDF. You can google that URL and get it in HTML, but I'd recommend just reading the PDF, if you don't mind PDF. This is my train reading.

    And guys... I know this is an emotionally charged topic (if there are any Russians in here), but please refrain from the typical calls for genocide threads like this get. Read the article. This isn't about the politics of the Chechyn conflict, which I know from living in Moscow during Nord Ost, having my McDonalds blown the fuck up, etc. are messy... this is about how to effectively (and in this case ineffectively) conduct a counterinsurgence. Which has direct relevance to our current situation, in a purely strategic and tactical sense.

    This is part of my train reading (38 hours from Margao, Goa-> Delhi and YES it will be as hot as in Kuwait when I get there), assuming that I can get a power jack in 2nd class AC. I've perused it and determined it revelant and damned good material for this forum ;)

    It is 59 pages, and I intend to read it all, along with the counter-insurgency manual that Ranger posted, so I'll have an informed ability to interpret the news about Iraq. I encourage you guys to do so as well. The manual to learn how to operate a counterinsurgency... and this article to learn how NOT to operate a counterinsurgency.
     
  2. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    Cliffs: 1600-1800 hard core Jihadis are keeping 90K troops and police at bay, in an area the size of New Jersey (or 1/25 the size of Iraq). Read to find out why.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2005
  3. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    Wow, apparently Chechyn rebels are REALLY good with IEDs, and are in communication with Iraqi and other insurgent/terrorist organizations to provide training.
     
  4. Soren

    Soren OT Supporter

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    yeah ive watched tons of videos of chechens blowing russian convoys away :eek3:
     
  5. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    Son of a BITCH, this article even talks about them blowing up my McDonalds near Yugo Zapadnaya, in front of the FSB college.
     
  6. PAK88mm

    PAK88mm Kharkov CounterOffensive '43 "Mansteins Counterstr OT Supporter

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    hit and run for the win. The problem with the russians is at 1st they went thinking they were facing half ass rebels. In reality theyre facing afghan vets and some from the conflict in yugo. Needless to say the 1st years were the bloodiest for the russians then followed success with better tactics. But they have problems with morale, desertion and massive corruption. The russian military is still in shambles and probably at best resembles the Iraqi army of 1991.
     
  7. Kozzy McKoz

    Kozzy McKoz OT Supporter

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    The Chechens are amazing fighters. The Russians would use artillery to clear the way for the advanced, the Chechens would just stay within 200 meters of the Russians to avoid getting hit. They were that good at using cover in the city.
     
  8. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    You might say that the prolonged combat in Chechnya has weeded out the num-nuts, and trained the smart fuckers into an elite fighting force.
     
  9. SpicyMcVoodoo

    SpicyMcVoodoo New Member

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    :wtf:
     
  10. Private Pyle

    Private Pyle Guest

    Nice find, those chechens dont seem to be as much of a rag-tag army as i thought.
     
  11. Soren

    Soren OT Supporter

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    the only good example of that is WW2
     
  12. Private Pyle

    Private Pyle Guest

    Soren were you a poster at mmgn once?
     
  13. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    I was living in SW Moscow during Nord Ost. That McDonalds was that nearest to my apartment. We ate there the day it was car bombed. A kid from my neighborhood died. Sorry, its OT... but this was the first time I heard it linked to Nord Ost, and it pissed me off.

    Soren: Google: Napoleon Moscow
     
  14. Ranger-AO

    Ranger-AO I'm here for the Taliban party. Moderator

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    the USA. :naughty:
     
  15. Ranger-AO

    Ranger-AO I'm here for the Taliban party. Moderator

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    I meant the Soviet Union underestimated the resolve and resources of the US during the cold war. We spent them into the ground.
     
  16. Ranger-AO

    Ranger-AO I'm here for the Taliban party. Moderator

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    There weren't a lot of juicy explosions and bombs getting dropped, but it was definitly a war. We defeated the Soviet Union. The Iron Curtain fell. We freed thousands of people that had been unable to see their own family members for decades.

    It was absolutely a war. And we won.
     
  17. Private Pyle

    Private Pyle Guest

    There was a lot of war-by-proxy of course, Afghanistan for example, the u.s giving the mujahadeen stingers was possibly the final straw for the Russians, they couldnt even hope to control that country without helicopter support for moving troops around and of course close support of those troops.

    The Russians just couldnt keep up with the military spending of the usa, it wasnt economically possible for them to purchase and finance the same sort of manpower and technology, Reagan did a good job of this, it ultimately led to the collapse of the warsaw pact, so yes the Americans and of course us in blighty did win.

    It was the best sort of war to win, comparitivley little blood shed.

    Anyone know any sources of any small conflicts that did happen, such as when a British lincoln on excercise in the 50's strayed into east germany and got shot down by migs. I bet theres loads of incidents like that barely reported.
     
  18. Ranger-AO

    Ranger-AO I'm here for the Taliban party. Moderator

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    Yeah. I still remember the feeling of horror when I realized that we actually helped train and equip a lot of the "freedom fighters" that evolved into the modern day Al-Qaeda.

    :bigthumb:

    I don't know any sources, but I remember reading in the Start & Stripes newspaper when I was stationed in England about a couple of US Army officers that were caught snooping around in East Germany. One of 'em (I think he was a Major) was shot up. The Warsaw guys didn't fuck around when it came to shoot first/question later.
     
  19. Private Pyle

    Private Pyle Guest

    Where in England were you stationed?

    I live between mildenhall and raf upper heyford, used to love sitting up on hill behind house when a10's would come down the valley in fours and take it in turn peeling off practising searching for targets.

    All kinds of mad stuff went on in cold war, American subs used to go right up to the Russian coast line as the ruskies ran communication cables down there coastlines, the usn apparently stuck listening devices on them that the russians never found. My bro was in the raf during the cold war and apparently British jets used to pop over into russian airspace over scandanavia pretty often just to test the reactions of the ruskies.
     
  20. Ranger-AO

    Ranger-AO I'm here for the Taliban party. Moderator

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    I was at RAF Bentwaters, near Ipswitch in Suffolk County. Yup - I love the A10. When I would go on maneuvers with the Royal Marines, it was absolutely awesome to see the A10 come in from the IP. You could see the moment he locked on to our laser designator. There is nothing like the sight of an A10 growing bigger and bigger and bigger, and then you realize that if this had been real and you were the enemy, there would be lots of 30mm holes in you. :eek3:

    God I love that jet. :)

    My squadron commander at Bentwaters used to fly F4's inside Soviet airspace at wavetop level, and then pop up until he got painted on radar and head straight out again to guage the Soviet reaction times at various points. Fun times, as long as nobody got killed. :hsd:
     
  21. Private Pyle

    Private Pyle Guest

    I know that area, my bro was up in norfolk at coltishall with jaguars, my uncle was royal marines, another signals regiment and the other was in 2para.
     
  22. Private Pyle

    Private Pyle Guest

    Crimean?
     
  23. Private Pyle

    Private Pyle Guest

  24. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    RELATIVELY BLOODLESS?

    The cold-war had our secretary of fucking defense shaking Saddam Hussein's hand, because we could use him against the Soviets. There are a hundred such examples. Proxy wars save American lives (and sometimes cost 3000+ later), but they are incredibly costly in terms of human suffering and violent death.

    Sir, your statement was literally the dumbest, jingoist, most ignorant statement that I have seen so far in this forum. I'm not trying to flame you, but I am amazed. Just amazed.

    The Cold War was incredibly bloody, on a global scale. Just not on American soil. How convenient that foriegn lives seem to mean nothing to you.

    And as to American lives... have you forgot just how close the nuclear gamble came to terminating human life, on several occasions... and MAY STILL DO SO?

    My god... sorry to flip, I'm just fuckin amazed.
     
  25. Private Pyle

    Private Pyle Guest

    But there were no daily news reports of casualty figures, for the average citizen they were pretty detatched from events, not like nowadays where most of us no someone involved in conflict.

    I must say I was shocked reading that pdf at the levels of insurgency in recent years in chechyna, its amazing we dont hear more about it, i post on a russian forum and its hardly mentioned on there.
     

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