GUN The lack of lethality of that bullet has caused United States soldiers to die

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by TL1000RSquid, Jun 8, 2006.

  1. TL1000RSquid

    TL1000RSquid ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Bring back the M14 and along with it cheaper Civilian versions :x:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/06/cbsnews_investigates/main1688223.shtml

    (CBS) This reporter's notebook was written by CBS News chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian.
    Like so many investigative stories, this one started with a trickle of information — a phone call from a source who pointed us in the direction of a military firestorm over the so-called "stopping power" of the 5.56 mm bullet used by U.S. troops in their M-16 rifles on the ground in Iraq.

    As it turns out, the debate dates back more than 40 years, ever since the 5.56 replaced the larger-caliber 7.62 mm bullet in the early days of the Vietnam War. Lately, however, given the nature of urban warfare in Iraq, reports from the field have raised new questions about an old bullet.

    One particular episode immediately caught our eye. It involved a Special Forces raid in Ramadi in response to the bombing of the U.N. Headquarters in Baghdad back in August 2003. According to a soldier who was there, during a fierce exchange of gunfire, one insurgent was hit seven — count ‘em, seven — times in the torso by the 5.56, only to be brought down by a single shot to the head from a .45 caliber pistol. But before the insurgent died, he killed two U.S. soldiers and wounded seven.

    The man who brought that story to our attention was retired Marine Maj. Anthony Milavic, who's hardly shy in his anger over the 5.56.

    "The lack of lethality of that bullet has caused United States soldiers to die," said Milavic, a veteran of two tours of duty in Vietnam.

    From his home in Virginia, Milavic moderates an online discussion group where the 5.56, it turns out, is the source of a great deal of chatter and frustration among veterans and weapons experts. Many insist the 5.56 is better suited to shooting squirrels than the enemy; that close-quarter fighting in Iraq demands a bigger bullet. "A bullet that knocks the man down with one shot, and keeps him down" Milavic told me. "I call that knock-down power. I call that stopping power."

    But a single sense of outrage, no matter how powerful, does not a story make. So senior producer Bert Rudman and I traveled to Southern California to interview a man who said he would literally show us what all the fuss was about. Bruce Jones is a mechanical engineer who helped design artillery, rifles and pistols for the Marines. In a nondescript industrial park on the outskirts of Los Angeles, Jones gave us a close-up look. First he fired the 5.56 into a block of glycerin designed to show what happens in the human body when a bullet rips through it. Then he fired the larger-caliber 7.62 into another block of glycerin. To the naked eye the "exit wounds" seemed similar, which is one reason I'm the TV correspondent and Jones is a mechanical genius (he's a card-carrying member of Mensa). In actuality, he told us, the "hole cavity is 50 percent or more larger." Sure enough, when our intrepid camera crew backlit the glycerin blocks, the difference between the "funnel path" of the 5.56 and the 7.62 was clearly evident.

    Continued
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  2. fucking :werd:

    pussy ass M16 :hay: :riaa:

    bring back the garand
     
  3. Fire Sauce

    Fire Sauce New Member

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    show us page 2, dammit
     
  4. you forgot the 2nd half of the article..


    (CBS)

    Pierre Sprey couldn’t have been less impressed when I told him what we had seen. A former Pentagon weapons expert, he championed the 5.56 to secretaries of state and presidents believing it both lethal and light. During our time together, he shook his head at the online debate sparked, he felt, by those who are far from expert in the field of testing and war. He believes the more bullets the better, and that soldiers carrying 300 rounds and firing on automatic don't compare to those carrying 100 and firing one big bullet at a time. "There is no such thing as a well-aimed shot in combat," said Sprey. "Combat is fought by scared 18-year-olds who haven't trained enough and are in places they've never seen before."

    Well, I've been in enough places over time to know when it comes to investigative work there's no better path to follow than what we call "the paper trail." So off we went — eventually discovering a confidential report to Congress in which active Marine commanders complained about the 5.56 ("the most worthless round … torso shots not lethal") and two more internal reports based upon the Army's most extensive testing of the 5.56 since 1990.

    The testing took place at the Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey. In an initial interim report dated September 2004 the 5.56 ranked last in lethality out of three bullets tested. A second draft, dated March of this year, confirmed those rankings to a CBS producer who looked at the report. To top it off we found a story in a recent issue of Marine Corps Times magazine that was particularly enlightening. In it a squad leader said his Marines carried and used "found" enemy AK-47s because their 7.62 bullets packed "more stopping power." In effect, they put down their own weapons in favor of those carried by the enemy because they felt more secure, especially in close-quarter battle.

    We contacted both an arsenal and an Army spokesman at the Pentagon about our story, and both knocked it down. Initially, they called the reports and rankings "wrong … not statistically grounded" and "not the final version."

    Then just before our story ran, the Army issued a press release stating it had completed a detailed study affirming the effectiveness of the 5.56. Surprisingly, at least to us (given the rankings and reports we had seen) the Army said their study actually was not a comparison of the 5.56 to any other caliber bullets in close-quarter fighting but rather the 5.56 to "commercially-available" rounds. The release pointed out the 5.56 did "have the same potential effectiveness in the hands of a Warfighter during the heat of battle."

    You can read what you want in that last paragraph. I can tell you many of the people to whom we were talking expressed a great deal of displeasure over it. No matter what side you’re on, one thing is abundantly clear: with nearly 800,000 U.S. soldiers carrying M-16 rifles around the world, the cost of modifying those guns to fire any other bullet seems certain to spark a firestorm all its own.
     
  5. they dont need to "modify the m16 to accept another bullet" :ugh:

    they could convert them to semi-auto, sell them on the open market for about $800 a piece, and buy two M1 garands for the money they make on each m16
     
  6. DaJMan

    DaJMan When i was young, i dreamed of being a baseball

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    "hole cavity is 50 percent or more larger."
    for a card carrying member of mensa he doesnt know much about grammer :o

    OK they found the 5.56 to be effective... but if there is a round out there that is BETTER why not upgrade...???
     
  7. PanzerAce

    PanzerAce Active Member

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    lol, all they have to do is sell the uppers on the open market, and go buy 6.8 or 6.5 uppers
     
  8. TL1000RSquid

    TL1000RSquid ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    .458
     
  9. EatShoots&Leaves

    EatShoots&Leaves New Member

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    what about fragmentation? :dunno:
     
  10. 7

    7 First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.

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    why the fuck do you keep talking about garands? :ugh:
     
  11. Fire Sauce

    Fire Sauce New Member

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    lol no
     
  12. Ford4Life

    Ford4Life Guest

    After they dump the 5.56 they need to dump 9mm for sidearms. Go back to .45, especially since they use ball ammo.
     
  13. david_4x4

    david_4x4 New Member

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    The govt could never sell M-16 lowers modified to semi auto only. It's been clearly stated that once a machine gun, always a machine gun.

    As for going back to the M-14 larger bullet etc. I think it's all give and take. More stopping power at the cost of say full auto effectiveness and laying down lots of accurate firepower. An M-14 isnt exactly accurate running in full auto.
     
  14. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    If I were restricted to nothing but fmj ammo I'd want .223 since it can get the velocity to fragment well. When I start being able to select other types of rounds my opinions might change.

    I think for close range use I'd be reasonably ok trusting .223 The problems come in with you the government puts on short barrels that kill the velocity and you start trying to penetrate cars and walls before you get to the person. I have no idea if barrier penetration is a huge issue for our guys now or not. I get the impression they're doing some indoors work and if so .223 really is strong there.

    If I had to have fmj .223 or 7.62x39 in their situation, I'd pick .223 every time.
     
  15. Furner

    Furner New Member

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    so, does this mean my AR15 is not deadly anymore? aparently its not very good in iraq, yet all the liberals say it is a human-operated killing machine.
     
  16. 99_civic_ex

    99_civic_ex Active Member

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    if you're going to make fun of the guy, at least make sure that you spell correctly
     
  17. Y2kAccord

    Y2kAccord Everything happens for reasons I just dont know

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    Its no 7.62.. remember the article posted that said the AK round can go clean through a house from over 600m :noes:
     
  18. DaJMan

    DaJMan When i was young, i dreamed of being a baseball

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    lol pwnt

    i am nor ever will be a card carrying member of mensa... so i take stabs where ever possible... :hs:
     
  19. 99_civic_ex

    99_civic_ex Active Member

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    ;) my last post sounds kind of harsh but it was in jest.
     
  20. Sssnake

    Sssnake meh

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    The guys I know over there all complain about lack of penetration of the .223. Alot of the fighting is done with walls and doors as barriers and the 7.62 does a much better job going through them. It was a similar issue during Vietnam where hiding behind trees wouldn't protect our troops but it would give the enemy protection against the M16.
     
  21. DaJMan

    DaJMan When i was young, i dreamed of being a baseball

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    no worries mate... :bigthumb:

    ------------------

    i always thought (im no expert on armed forces btw) that the military wouldnt put all their eggs in one basket, when it comes to issued weapons... sure its handy that everyone fire the same round, but why not different horses for different courses...

    if one team (unsure of terminology) of infantry, can come into fire fights at long range open areas, city urban areas, and room to room searching, then obviously ONE round isnt gonna cut it for all of those circumstances... why couldnt they issue the team with a variety of weapons rather than everyone get the same rifle...? or do they do that now???
     
  22. Aequitas

    Aequitas If it keeps on raining, levee's going to break.

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    Just to verify, was the guy in the article comparing the .223 to the 7.62 x 51 or x 39?
     
  23. Aequitas

    Aequitas If it keeps on raining, levee's going to break.

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    Also, I was watching a documentary on A&E the other night about soldiers in Iraq. Some of the guys were saying they got in a fight with a few insurgents, and they were really freaked because one of the guys took about 50 shots before he finally bled out (one of the Iraqis). They went inside the house and found empty bottles of adrenaline and some methamphetamines. I'm sure it isn't the .223's fault, but I thought it was interesting anyways.
     
  24. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    I could definately see the point then. I sure wouldn't want to do inside a house with a bunch of guys firing 7.62 though.
     
  25. 01_Cruiser

    01_Cruiser An American Classic OT Supporter

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    Way to have faith in our troops :hsugh:

    He sounds french, so you really cant expect anything more out of him :o
     

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