Something I wrote a year ago... Seduction guys and vag people input please

Discussion in 'Vaginarium' started by Falconer, Sep 23, 2006.

  1. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    I know this is kinda long, and I think I've made some progress since then, but I want your opinions on this. I bet a lot of people here are in similiar positions. Here you go:

    When you're at bars/clubs/wherever, naturally you're somewhat in competition with all the other guys out there. So, how do you deal with the frat boy douche bags, the guys who exude sickening amounts of machismo that actually seems to work because they're always picking up girls?

    Here's where my problem lies: I'm not bad looking; I'm muscular and lean, I know how to dress, I'm intelligent, etc. However, say I see a gorgeous girl at a bar, and I see the aforementioned "Douche bags" pulling their shit on her, and it's working. When I see her falling for his crap, it turns me off... I think to myself, "if she goes for that crap then she's absolutely not my type at all." Do I have a valid point, or is this some subconscious defense mechanism that's occuring? I justify it as not wanting a girl who is shallow/stupid enough to be attracted to typical frat boy antics (which I view as "below" what I want to be socially). I hope I'm explaining this well. If I were to act like them it would make me sick, however I feel trapped bcause it seems like this is what's required to make conversation with/pick up the majority of chicks out there, but yet I'd rather have no company than bad company.

    Furthermore, I'm a bit of a misanthrope. I don't like most people I meet, and I find conversation with most people to be neither stimulating nor interesting. I'm not being pretentious here, but my idea of fun is not yelling about how much a ceratin sports team sucks, nor do I give a shit how tough the guy I'm talking to is when he's all "Man I totally kicked some dude's ass at a bar last weekend." It's not that I'm anti-social, it's just that most people bore me. It's kind of funny, tho, becuase from looking at me most people would assume I'm some fratboy jock or something. I work in corporate America, I'm clean cut, etc., but then someone gets in my car and they freak out because I'm listening to Dimmu Borgir or Stratovarius or something instead of their typical MTV radio shit like "the White Stripes" or whatever the talentless flavor of the week is.

    Not to be long-winded, but I'm trying to paint an accurate picture here. My free-thinker tendencies obviously go against the social grain and therefore hurt me socially when I'm out. Is there a way to remedy this without feeling like I'm selling myself out? Why do I always see chicks paying attention to guys that aren't that good looking and are acting like total douche bags? Is a good looking and intelligent guy a girl's second choice to an average looking douche bag?

    (this next paragraph isn't quite true anymore because, like I said, I wrote this a year ago)

    I'm 24, and I've really only had two girlfriends (each relationship was about 3 years long), both of whom were absolutely gorgeous and brilliant. However, I was lucky to meet them; obviously girls like that are not common. They also had similiar opinions as me regarding the social scene and were turned off by "douche bag behavior." So, I guess I'm asking for both everyday social advice as well as advice as it relates to getting chicks.

    I guess I don't see that much wrong with myself (other than typical insecurities), but I feel like I give off "don't talk to me" vibes, because I have only been approached by a girl ONCE, ever, in my entire life. My friends have told me that I give off arrogant, cocky vibes. When I enter a room full of people I don't know, people are not drawn to me (something that I originally thought was based on looks), and no one attempts to make conversation with me. If I initiate something, I feel like I get short answers (like what you do when you don't really want to talk to someone). At the same time, schmoozing pisses me off (because it's fake and because I can't do it). I guess I want to learn how to be more charismatic or something. I've seen physically unattractive people that are insanely charismatic, so it can't all be about looks, can it?

    I apologize again for this being so long, but I felt this was a good place to post this. Thanks for reading.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2006
  2. Yail Bloor

    Yail Bloor OT Supporter

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    I didnt get to read all of that, but here's something to think about.

    I get argued with by the ladies, but the fact is a woman's attraction is not a logical choice. So when you talk about frat boy antics working on attractive women and you judging them for this, don't. Its not her fault because its not a choice. She is either attracted to them or she isn't.

    I totally understand where you are coming from and I too have felt the same way.
     
  3. bandwagon

    bandwagon Copy/Paste

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    Falconer, what is it that you want? You've described the type of person that you are, but if you could get anything what would it be? Describe your perfect chick, how you would meet her, the things that you would do together.

    The reason I say this is because you sound a lot like I did before I got into this game. Looking back, I had a lot of views that were just not realistic. Example:

    I used to think that if I could just get a girl to listen to me play sappy guitar for a few hours, she would be all mine. Now I know that that would barely get her attracted to me at all.
     
  4. 19Godfather86

    19Godfather86 New Member

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    You clearly think you're high brow, when really, you're not that high brow. Problem with that is, you're still pretentious as if you were, and so girls probably just don't want any of your shit.
     
  5. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    I want to be more charismatic. I want to walk into a room and command the attention of the entire room effortlessly. I want everyone in the room to go "whoa, I want to talk to that guy."

    I want to stop giving off "don't talk to me" vibes and have people (and girls) be interested in approaching me.

    My perfect chick, aside from being beautiful, would have a similiar, cynical mindset like mine. She would be able to identify instantly, and shut down, when guys "game" on her, because she would be able to see through and have no interest in that bullshit. When a guy would use seduction tactics or whatever on her, she would recognize it and immediately think less of him for doing so, and needless to say, not fall for it.

    You're right. All these douche bag maneuvers that work with chicks piss me off. The piss me off because they're retarded, and I think the girls that "fall" for them are stupid. I would like to think that I'm more "real" and I'm above that, but I have no results to speak for.
     
  6. PocoDiablo

    PocoDiablo New Member

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    You have high standards, what's wrong with that?

    And while it is nice to have everyone stop and look at you while you walk in, I've met the most amazing women while I was shopping, never at clubs/bars.
     
  7. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

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    You sound a lot like I used to feel. I really admire your ability to consider multiple explanations of yourself - you show a lot of self-honesty. Because I think you may believe me, I'm going to assert that yes, your dismissal of women who go for pushy frat boys is a defense mechanism. Part of the logic here is what Yail said. You can't control your attraction. If it's not a choice, you're not accountable for it. Extending from that concept, you can extrapolate that what attracts you and what you value may not be remotely related. I am an example of this because what attracts me are lips/breasts/asses, but what I value is social dynamism and a high emotional quotient.
    It is not about looks, not for guys. Post an ok pic of yourself on HotOrNot and look at the people who rank at your level of attractiveness. Do you think they're doing better or worse than you socially? They're probably doing a lot better.
    Based on your post, here are some concepts I think you need to absorb.

    Most of all you need to get the concept of play.

    The content of what someone is telling you in a social interaction is not what they are actually telling you. That usage of words is reserved for arguments or serious discussions. Not for play. Socializing is play. People are telling you something, and it's not the meaning of their words, rather the tone and the delivery of them, and they expect you to realize that, and you probably do not. A guy can pick up women by telling them about his laundry list. CLEARLY the communication is not about his dirty socks. That is a warped perspective of schmoozing. Tell me to elaborate if I have not made it clear what I mean by distinguishing content from delivery, "playful" from "fake."

    In addition to learning how to play, you quite clearly must stop taking an oppositional perspective in social environments. Frat boys right now are perceived threats, if you can swallow that for a second. For some people, seeing threats in the environment and then defeating them works great. It worked for my Dad. For others, like myself, seeing threats just makes us aloof and negative. Based on the "arrogant" comments you get, I recommend that you begin the process of learning how to view people differently.

    Specifically, unless it's overtly aggressive, assume everything you find implicitly offensive is a joke. Believe it's a joke, because it probably is, and even if it isn't, it should be; treat it like a joke and act like it's a joke. Reciprocate the joke, introduce yourself. It's all play. You have to understand that that is half of what socializing is about. It's the adult version of playing, plus a grand opportunity to connect with people.

    I understand that some of the guys out there really do not consciously take this stance on people and are kind of out to prove themselves, but in my experience, if you are insisting on a playful spin, guys, girls, whoever will quite willingly and happily join you. Or they will just mope in the corner and view you as a threat, if they have a warped frame. (But you're a cool guy: you can break through probably just by ignoring their coldness and being friendly.)

    In addition, you need to get rid of your misanthropy. Honestly, you might be able to play just fine even without losing your broad contempt, because play is fun and fairly meaningless. But that will likely be kind of depressing. So what you must do during interactions is find the unique, interesting qualities of the person you're speaking to. If you were not interested in them, it was your fault, because you did not find that interesting aspect. I acknowledge that this may be extreme. There definitely may be some people in the world who will bore you to the core. But you are on the far end of the spectrum in the opposite direction of this positive mentality, so take this extreme approach, this presupposition that if you're not interested, you just haven't found it yet. No matter the person.

    That's focus #2, losing the misanthropy. Focus #1 is play. You don't want to have purely serious, deep, or meaningful conversations with people all the time. (Even if you do want to, other people don't.) You also don't want to have lighthearted, playful, and meaningless conversations with people all the time. Again, nor do other people. The idea ultimately is to have both at once. I am still working on the play part of the interaction, but in other people's experiences, doing both at once leads to real friends and to lovers.

    There are other ways to find what you are looking for, but all of them make my conscience squirm and my cynicism sky-rocket.
     
  8. bandwagon

    bandwagon Copy/Paste

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    This we can do.

    This too.

    Here is where your beliefs have to change. As Yail said, attraction is not a choice. Don't just read that... sit and think about what it means.


    GOOD! Here we go... They piss you off because they aren't falling for you. They piss you off because you are taking your first peek into the dating matrix... that strage place where things ARE NOT the way you always were taught that they were. You are starting to understand the implications of it:

    -Some other guy could sweep her off her feet and take her away from you
    -She bumps into some other PUA and cheats
    -She could lose attraction for you and not know why
    -Trust me, there is lots more, but you don't want to know yet

    BUT those are all the negative sides! Part of being good with women is being positive all the time! Lets take a look at that list again:

    -YOU could sweep her off her feet
    -YOU could take her away from her loser boyfriend
    -She could become attracted to you and not even know why
    -...

    So do you want the blue pill or the red pill?
     
  9. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

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    This is like saying, "My perfect guy, aside from being handsome, would not be attracted to girls with perky 36c tits, blonde hair, blue eyes, high cheekbones, a slim waist and a big butt." It's not a choice. Falling for barbie may be a choice but the initial attraction is a response, not a decision.
     
  10. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    I would like to think that I am able to differentiate between attraction and value. I can be physically attracted to a girl, if she opens her mouth and reveals stuff about herself that I don't respect (aka don't value), my actual attraction to her goes down.

    I consider physical attraction to be a seperate entity from overall attraction. I'm not sure how this fits in with seduction dogma, but it's what I've come up with. There are:

    - Girls that I am physically attracted to that I wouldn't persue a relationship with because of whatever reason (they're dumb, whores, or clash with some other fundamental value I have).

    - Girls that I am not physically attracted to but I still like them. According to ladder theory, this isn't supposed to happen with guys, but they are still my Intellectual Whores. I like talking to them, but I would never fvck them. Do I defy ladder theory? I think I have two ladders just like a girl.

    - Girls that I am attracted to physically AND on the value scale. This is RARE.

    Please correct me if I am way off here.

    If you could elaborate a bit I would appreciate it.

    Yeah. I absolutely agree with you, as much as I don't like to admit it.

    But I still maintain that, any girl who falls for their act, is automatically removed from my "possible dating pool." I think that I may be trying to rewrite the rules of the matrix here, and I will obviously fail.

    Interesting. I definately have my work cut out for me then.

    So ok, let's say I start to "play" and talk to people more or whatever. Have you ever had someone keep talking to you and you're like "holy shit, this person is annoying, please go the fuck away?" I feel like that's how people feel about me when I "play" with them in social settings. This might just be my insecurities or something that I am imagining, but I watch how people react to me, and I watch how people react with other people, and it's definately not the same.

    Yeah. That's what I need.

    I know attraction is not a choice... but persuing it is. Were you referring to a girl being attracted to a guy here (because you said this in response to my "ideal woman" comment). I guess I would want my gf to say "wow, I'm attracted to this guy (since it's not a choice), but he's a total douche so I don't want him" and then walk away. The girl I dated for 3.5 years was like that. She was awesome.

    Yeah I do.

    I guess you're right... this "dating matrix" is not how I thought things worked. I guess I grew up with an idealized, romantic idea of how relationships worked, and my first real relationship supported that notion, but it seems like in the real world (the matrix) it's not exactly like that. It kind of cheapens the things I thought were special, but I suppose it's starting to make a little more sense, too.

    So I guess the first issue at hand is "How do we make Falconer more charismatic?" I just started a new job, too, so I need to be making good first impressions.

    I always thought it was somehow related to looks. I don't necessarily mean "good" or "bad" looking people, but there seems to be a certain charismatic look, or vibe, that some people give off regardless of how attractive they are. It's that vibe that good flirts/salesmen/models have that makes other people want to engage in conversation/keep talking with them. Is that something that can be taught/learned/improved? How? Please help me.
     
  11. Midgetized

    Midgetized Don't mess with Douche Cat

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    If you are looking for a chick that doesn't like those type of guys then why are you going to bars/clubs to meet them? :mepoke: I don't like guys like that so you will never see me in a bar/club talking to them. If you don't like typical girls and you aren't a typical guy then don't go to the places everyone else goes to hook up.
     
  12. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

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    It's easier to say that most people don't interest you than to say that you don't interest most people. The truth is that you don't have to say either.
    I know exactly this feeling. What happens is that you go into the environment, you get this sense of implicit rejection, you don't like it, you lock up.

    It helps to think about how your current behavior would apply to other areas of expertise. You know Tekken 3? :rofl: (It's a fighting video game if you don't know.) The first time you play, you get your ass kicked, you have no style, you fail the first three rounds. What then? If you responded the way you do in social situations, you would quit the game for the night, feeling quite horrible about either yourself or about Tekken 3 players or both. Maybe you would quit for a week, and maybe for a month, depending on how badly your ass was handed to you. Afterwards you might try again briefly, afraid to get the same outcome, and then of course you would get essentially the same outcome, having played all of 3 rounds in the last month. Then repeat the process. This ensures that you will make very, very little progress.

    As you can see, whatever you're practicing, it really doesn't make sense to put your ego on the line per interaction. No... b/c individual interactions are just opportunities to learn. You might face implicit rejection a hundred times in a row before you figure out how to break it. More likely you will face it twice and then not at all for a while and then five times and then not at all for a while. That's great. Getting rejected, getting accepted, either one teaches you something when you go back and think over what happened.

    In the short term, absorbing the goal of slowly learning rather than of instantly succeeding means you'll have much better and more satisfying nights out at the clubs. In the long term, of course, it means you will succeed more and more frequently.

    Don't analyze too much in the moment. You have a memory, so use it. Do something, monitor the responses, store them for later analysis. Do something else, rinse, repeat.
     
  13. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

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    This is how I understand it, based on personal and shared experience. What attracts a guy is physical. What attracts a girl is sometimes physical but is more about how a guy behaves socially. She's not valuing his flirty antics, she's just attracted to them. Because guys are not like this, because they are foremost attracted physically and view the rest as value, it's hard for many of us to understand intuitively.

    Metaphorically, "funny" for a girl is "boobs" for a guy, "socially aware" for a girl is "ass" for a guy, "sexually comfortable" for a girl is "lips" for a guy. (You can mix and match the actual correlations, the specifics there were arbitrary.)
     
  14. bandwagon

    bandwagon Copy/Paste

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    My understanding is that physical attractiveness is just part of the overall value equation... the difference is that it is a large part of value for men and a low part of value for women. (IE: Men care more about looks).

    Attraction = Value + Availability + Compliance

    In your example, the value changes, therefore the attraction changes.

    It just clicked where your problem is. It's a fundamental difference between men and women. Lets make some generalizations. Men are logical, women are emotional. You are approaching attraction from a very logical point of view (which is normal for guys). She sees it completely different. Lets outline the female thought process:

    -Meets guy, feels attracted
    -Is in a great mood, guy makes her feel things (mostly good)
    -Associates lots of feelings with the guy
    -Wants to feel good all the time, so hangs around guy all the time
    -Eventually things break down, he stops giving her powerful emotions
    -Goto 1

    Notice how there isn't a rational thought in there? This is why girls are attracted to assholes. BECAUSE THEY GIVE HER LOTS OF POWERFUL EMOTIONS. Nowhere did she think "oh he's not my type" or "oh, I'm catholic, he's protestant".

    First, figure out WHY this bothers you. Personally, I am minorly offended that you think any guys with game are putting on an act. Just shows that you don't really understand this stuff yet. You came to US for advice, remember?

    This is all stuff that comes with social practice. I'd much rather get your beliefs straightened out, and then work on the social issues. I usually say "Well, I won't take up too much of your time.." Subcommunication: 'I don't want YOU taking up too much of MY time'.

    Basically, the guy's value was too low to create enough attraction. If he wasn't a douche his value would be much higher. If the two of you weren't dating, his availability would be higher.

    I hate that feeling. :sadwavey: Been there, done that. Sometimes wish I had taken the other pill. I just try to use all this stuff to my advantage.

    Join the Style challenge.

    Yes, people like being around attractive people. The idea is to demonstrate that you CARE about yourself. So maybe you're a 6/10. With the right fashion, grooming, posture, fitness, you could easily be an 8/10. Now, add social skills, a bit of psychological know-how, you're a 10/10.

    This thread is kinda all over the place. If you have specific questions, can you outline them neatly for us? :)
     
  15. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    I think those are both true. A lot of the time when I'm talking to people I just met, I also kinda get the feeling that they can't connect with me. Then again, I also get the feeling that they don't want to connect with me. I want to be one of those people that everyone wants to talk to, and if they feel like they can't connect, I want them to go nuts and try harder.

    Yup.

    That was brilliant :)

    I guess the difference is, when you lose at Tekken 3, you don't feel like there's something wrong with you. But still, I get your analogy, and I thought it was a good one.

    I guess that takes care of the "feeling like there's something wrong with me" part from above.

    You know what it is, tho? I don't want to be one of those annoying people. Those annoying people who try to be social, but they suck at it, and they bug the crap out of everyone at the party/club/bar/whatever. I don't mean noob PUAs... I mean really, truly annoying people. You know the type. I'd rather be introverted and have people think "wow, that guy's a loner" than have people thinking "why doesn't that guy just go home?" I'm sure it's not as bad as I'm making it out to be in my head, tho.


    That makes sense.


    That makes sense, too.

    Do women have a similiar formula?



    I think it just clicked with me. I think I wanted to focus on #1 from that list, "feels attracted." What are the intial components that cause her to "feel attracted" before she even talks to the guy and he has the chance to "make her feel good things?"

    No offence. It seems to be an "act" because a lot of people do it because it's what gets them chicks. They modify their behaviors to bring about a specific goal. Also keep in mind that I wrote this a year ago and back then I categorized it under "fake frat boy bullshit."


    Interesting.


    This thread has been a great help so far. The two main questions I have I made bold in my reply, but I'm sure I will have more as time goes on. I think right now I'm trying to learn how this all works before I begin learning "techniques" or whatever. It's like learning the basic rules of baseball or something before you begin to play. Is that the right way to be going about this?
     
  16. Yail Bloor

    Yail Bloor OT Supporter

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    falconer, i haven't had time to read the whole thread yet

    but it sounds to me like you are looking for a man in a woman's body. There are fundamental difference between men and women that you seem unwilling to accept.

    You expect to meet a woman who thinks like you do and reacts to situations like you would.

    Forget your idealism and the way you want things to be, and learn to deal with things as they really are. That's my advice.
     
  17. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

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    The frame is slow learning, not immediate outcomes.

    An entire night where you find new ways to annoy people is a better learning experience than a long dark sulk in the corner.

    Along the way to learning how to enjoy yourself and to do better in social settings, you might happen to hit this phase you've come up with where you are bugging a lot of folks. I mean the point is that you are starting out with poor social skills. Neither being a lonely moper nor being a clingy ball of energy is a permanent state of being. You happen to be starting off in the former role rather than the latter. Doesn't matter a smidge. The equivalent would be that on the way to becoming a Tekken 3 guru you might go through a button-mashing phase. You don't quit playing before you've begun, unless you're beating yourself up about it the whole time, which is something you just have to stop doing. Again, keep your ego off the line on a per-interaction basis.
     
  18. bandwagon

    bandwagon Copy/Paste

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    This is THE formula for attraction. Gender is a non-issue. You can't really get a whole lot of attraction from a woman without saying a word. As we said, physical attraction is a pretty low factor for value for women. You're going to have to come out of your shell and speak to her. There IS techniques for this when you're ready.
     
  19. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

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    "Technique" to people like us is often (though not always) merely "natural understanding of other humans" to extraverts.
    I think there's value in the analogy of relating social improvement to learning how to play baseball. You already know the goal and the various constraints. Your task now is to gain a vast amount of experience to help you meet goals within those constraints. The only error in the analogy is that social environments provide an incomparably larger amount of room for creativity than simple sports.

    Btw, you might like how "techniques" in pick-up were discovered. It always starts with some guy. To take one example, there was a guy at the age of 21 who was still a virgin. He decided to get a grip and did something very unusual for a man in his position: he went out and faced rejection/reciprocation again and again and again and again, like it was a video game. Voila, patterns emerged for him and a reliable model of human interactions developed. Because a few guys did the same process somewhat independently, if you look further into it, you will find that there are multiple "models." But it is foolish to think of them as competing models. They all work, both in the sense that they work for their creators and in the sense that they work for people who adopt them. One of them (too negative for me) is based on maintaining power. One of them relies upon certain universal qualities in people that I personally wish didn't even exist. The one I've chosen relies upon qualities that are less disturbing. You have a certain selection available to you. Make sure you pick a method that has been developed through experience ... purely theoretical armchair logic will not help you connect with people better.
     
  20. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    Ok, here's where I'm at now: I don't think I'm that bad looking, and my gfs have all told me I was hot. I always thought that the reason I was having trouble in social settings was because my looks were somehow lacking, but now I realize that looks (to a woman) aren't really that important (altho I like it when my gf tells me I'm hot). I would think "they don't want to talk to me --> they must not want to be seen with me --> there must be something wrong with how I look."

    So, I think I need to begin learning these techniques and increase my charisma.

    So it's different ways of achieving the same goal. Gotcha.

    Could I get more info on these methods? Your text I just quoted made me very, very curious. Are they available for free somewhere or do I have to buy eBooks or whatever.

    I agree with you on that last part, and that's part of my problem; I sit around thinking and over-analyzing things way too much, in every part of my life. This was helpful in college, but has the opposite effect in real life, it seems.

    This thread is seriously beginning to open my eyes. I'm glad I decided to go ahead and post that thing I wrote a year ago. I almost didn't because I figured I'd probably get flamed, but I decided that the benefits outweighed the risks.
     
  21. bandwagon

    bandwagon Copy/Paste

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    I suggest you put on your thinking cap and head over to mASF. Google will help ya find it.
     
  22. Yail Bloor

    Yail Bloor OT Supporter

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    I can ;)
     
  23. SovietRussia

    SovietRussia What? You pooped in the refrigerator? OT Supporter

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    think like this all the time. i think that is the key. im not as well read as the other posters though.
     
  24. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    Bump for support. I need it now as a single guy. :wtc:
     
  25. Patch

    Patch New Member

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    Nothing wrong with that :)

    Like a previous poster said, the key is practice. Because whether or not you are successful you will learn things about human behaviour (as much as female behaviour can be understood :hs: ) which will help the next time you try.

    One thing I try to remember or at least think about is that you don't always have to show all of your cards right away. You may be the most caring, sensitive, intelligent guy in the world but if you are trying to pick up it is more important to show your fun, exciting side. And it is possible to do this without acting in a typical frat boy way. In my experience, intelligent plays on words and witty comments will also attract the type of women that you seem to be looking for rather then a shallow sorority type girl.

    Once you have got a women interested in talking to you (nd I don't neccesarily mean on the first night) you can start slowly bringing out the deeper side of your personality. Whether they continue to find you attractive depends on the individual women.

    Approaching it as a 2 or more part equation allows you to go out and "play" which will work to attract women, then allows you to get to know them better once the initial atraction seed has been planted.

    :dunno: if this makes any sense, but it's how I see things, and it has definately made a difference in my frustration level at these situations.

    Edit: Just saw your breakupthread as well. Hang in man. :grouphug:
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2006

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