so im planning on making a storage server

Discussion in 'OT Technology' started by zero xeal, May 9, 2004.

  1. zero xeal

    zero xeal Guest

    hopes are to break 2 TB, going with some type of raid set up, just not sure what i want exactly. raid 5 is super redundant, but is not the fastest, im hearing great things about JBOD

    major problems are, i cannot find rackmount cases with hot swap bays that i like, that are made by a good company that arent almost a grand, and when i do, the cooling on the drives looks like it is total crap.

    i want to go with amd for proc and mobo, os is either going to be freebsd, or windows 2003 server, dependant on tv card support in freebsd.

    input appreciated
     
  2. Ximian

    Ximian New Member

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    Go with FreeBSD just because it's has a decent filesystem. You wouldn't want 90% fragmentation on your 2TBs when you can get .9% with UFS.
     
  3. Penguin Man

    Penguin Man Protect Your Digital Liberties

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    :werd: Windows file systems suck.

    Also, for TV cards, as long as you go with one that's been around for a while, you shouldn't have problems with FreeBSD. Search around and see which TV cards have BSD drivers for them.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2004
  4. crontab

    crontab (uid = 0)

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    Who is giving you this RAID information? They are utterly misinforming you.

    Raid 5 is not "super redundant", you can only have one disk fail file given that you don't have any disks in the spare set. Mirror is the most redundant setup. RAID 5 is just a parity setup.

    Do you know what JBOD stands for? Just a Bunch Of Disks, which means just a bunch of disks. No redundancy, no performance, maybe some concatenation, but all it is are single disks. That's it. Nothing great about it.

    UFS isn't isn't much better than NTFS, well it's not that bad, but it's certainly not the best. There's no journaling, unless they added it, so you'll be fsck-ing that 2TB forever if you don't have journaling. I'd use NTFS over UFS any day. But ironically I would use a UNIX file server over a Windows file server any day. So if I were forced to create a free file server a Linux box with ext3 would be my choice.

    Or if I had to spend money I would use Veritas vxfs on Solaris or gfs on Linux or advfs with LSM on Tru64.

    If you're concerned file system I/O and integrity, this link is decent.

    http://www.io.com/~kazushi/filesystem/old/

    I wouldn't create a single 2TB volume since it would move all the I/O over one lun which isn't that good. Try to create a multiple lun volume so data can have more than one logical I/O path.

    If this is a "storage server", why put a tv card in it?
     
  5. Ximian

    Ximian New Member

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    UFS is much better than NTFS, just because it doesn't fragment much, that is reason enough.

    Journaling isn't worth the space it takes up. First of all, if you want your data to not get corrupted by power outages or such things, get a UPS. Second, you have RAID so the data is fine.

    http://www.io.com/~kazushi/filesystem/old/

    "NOTE: this shows too fast result, I guess I misconfigured"

    NOTE: This guy can't share good data, I guess this isn't a "decent" source

    For my file server, I would use XFS on SGI.
     
  6. crontab

    crontab (uid = 0)

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    UFS doesn't fragment much? Hmm, not our boxes, although we do move about 6-7 TB of data a day around. More so on the weekend, with our robust fs', we still have got to defragment.

    I have no idea what journaling you're talking about, it "theoretically" doesn't take up any space. It behaves just like a write-back cache battery on many hardware controllers. And will only take up space IF and only IF it CAN NOT journal the data back after a crash. A UPS can only help so much, but boxes crash for many reasons other than power outages and such things. UPS' don't help on kernel crashes, user error, RAM errors, anything that causes a hard crash. I think you misunderstood the point of RAID. It keeps the availibility of the or increases the performance of the volumes up. It does NOTHING for the integrity of the data on the file system. So I can have a RAID O+1 volumes and just pull the cable or crash the box and that raidset won't prevent anything from getting corrupt and won't help in recovery either.

    Wow, you just read one line on the front page. Did you go through all the links? I think not. If you're going to be critical, you gotta be a bit more thorough than that. And yes, it's only a decent link. Do you have any more sources?

    You use XFS on Irix. SGI is not an OS.
     
  7. Ximian

    Ximian New Member

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    By SGI, I was refering to hardware also considering XFS isn't exclusive to Irix.

    First of all, if you're going to put shitty RAM or whatever bad piece of hardware in, you deserve what's coming to you because you didn't test it. Kernel crashes nor user errors shouldn't happen if you've tested the system enough, or at all really.

    If you want journaling and good read speeds, look at ReiserFS and Linux 2.6.

    Oh, and hasn't UFS had journaling since Solaris 7? You should have known that, unless you're a "Sun scenewhore" or something.

    And about your source, I'm not going to waste my time with. I looked at one of the graphs, it didn't show many anything meaningful. From what I did see, it was a bunch of copied, unformatted crap which was meaningless. That's a horrible source since;

    1. It's not reliable
    2. Badly orginized data
    3. WTF is he trying to show?

    There are more, but I digres.
     
  8. 5Gen_Prelude

    5Gen_Prelude There might not be an "I" in the word "Team", but

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  9. Ximian

    Ximian New Member

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  10. RaginBajin

    RaginBajin Have you punched a donkey today?

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    Sounds like he is going to record tv programs and make it a huge Tivo and probably do normal storage on the side..
     
  11. crontab

    crontab (uid = 0)

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    Then why specifically SGI hardware? My onyx and indigo workstations were pigs back in the day. SupercalifragalisticFS isn't going to help -ish.

    RAM can go bad, doesn't matter if it's shitty or not. Parity or not, ECC or not, RAIM or not. Boards go bad, CPU's go bad, but I would assume that you don't have experience with much hardware so I understand. Kernel crashes or user errors "shouldn't" happen after some tests? What utopian world do you live in? I would like to know.

    ReiserFS is too sensitive for my tastes. And I've tried the kernel 2.6 if that's what you're refering to, but it doesn't support much of the hardware I have yet so I can't take much advantage of it. Plus who said what I wanted? I never said what I wanted. I know what I want and it's certainly not any of your advice or opinion.

    Yes, UFS logging has been introduced in Solaris 7, but what's your point? We were talking about FreeBSD weren't we? I don't have much experience with FreeBSD. [qoute]You should have known that, unless you're a "Sun scenewhore" or something.[/quote]Damn, what in the hell is your problem. Have I offended you in any way? Sorry. I feel really sorry for you.

    My source? It was link I found on google. Those charts are normal iostat's or sar outputs that admin use as statistics everyday. I don't know how much more useful they can be. But again, it doesn't seem like you have much experience on this, so I understand.

    Great, I completely agree.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2004
  12. crontab

    crontab (uid = 0)

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    LOL. Are these graphs easier to look at than ascii output? Unfortunately yes. Does it show the same data. Yes. Does it mean one that this is how benchmarks "should" be? Nope. I thought you people would be smart enough to understand stats without pictures. I assumed wrong. Man, I bet the next manuals coming out for people like you come in comic book format. KUDOS!
     
  13. Mikey D

    Mikey D New Member

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    How about ya'll focus on the question instead of trying one up each other on their Unix admin skills.
     
  14. 5Gen_Prelude

    5Gen_Prelude There might not be an "I" in the word "Team", but

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    Shhh, they're trying to impress the girls...
     
  15. crontab

    crontab (uid = 0)

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    I already did. Plus what we're bickering about doesn't necessarily have to do with UNIX nor even administration.

    Just waiting for the original poster to respond like always on this board.

    Ask a question and then dissappear. Typical.
     
  16. Ximian

    Ximian New Member

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    Damn, what in the hell is your problem. Have I offended you in any way? Sorry. I feel really sorry for you.

    My source? It was link I found on google. Those charts are normal iostat's or sar outputs that admin use as statistics everyday. I don't know how much more useful they can be. But again, it doesn't seem like you have much experience on this, so I understand.

    Great, I completely agree.[/QUOTE]Good hardware doesn't just go bad, it goes bad when you don't use it or cool it properly. I test all of my hardware and software. After these tests, I've NEVER had a kernel crash or "user error." If that's common to you, you must be a real shitty admin.

    I pretty much reailzed you were a joke when you said UFS isn't much better than NTFS which is very wrong. FAT/NTFS are plauged by 15 years of backwards compatability with the early PC filesystems and weren't even designed for any demanding server application, such as the file server.

    UFS on the other hand has softupdates to insure some level of data integrity and also has security features not found in NTFS such as the immutable, append and not delete flags.

    First of all, I don't care much for the data on the page, just that it's actually organized. Lets look at something:

    Auto Mode
    Command line used: iozone -a
    Output is in Kbytes/sec
    Time Resolution = 0.000001 seconds.
    Processor cache size set to 1024 Kbytes.
    Processor cache line size set to 32 bytes.
    File stride size set to 17 * record size.
    random random bkwd record stride
    KB reclen write rewrite read reread read write read rewrite read fwrite frewrite fread freread
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    524288 2048 65209 75603 200588 200663 200521 79865 200524 183932 200612 50178 53856 200412 200554
    524288 4096 64693 81652 201583 201510 201541 62894 201470 178869 199243 50149 54429 201205 201376
    524288 8192 64475 82165 201886 201818 201853 80886 201780 174730 200068 49612 53542 201928 200333
    524288 16384 64512 83103 201668 202111 202012 80677 202096 179116 198267 49556 55483 202019 202158


    Compared to:

    [​IMG]

    Now, a graph in this case is much more efficient that just all of the data thrown at you at once. Let's not mention this guy's misuse of JPEG instead of GIF or PNG.

    We can also review how it's presented, like for instance I don't see any place where it says "I screwed up the test, faulty hardware, software, etc" and still present that bad data. Don't share links that you just found on Google that are no better than just guessing at the nature of how filesystems perform.

    You must not have experience with these things, but "I understand."
     
  17. zero xeal

    zero xeal Guest

    sorry about the delay, fucking power outages, and buisy due to varius things. point of tv card is to obviously record television shows onto the box(plans are to also buy a decent sound card for it, and a video card that supports video out) so that i can stream it to the tvs in my soon to have house. the goal with the file server is to share files so if by setting it up with a certin file system or a cetin os that doesnt allow a tv card, its not the biggest deal, since i would rather have fast, and hopefully redundant setup.

    im going to do research on what youve mentioned i really appreciate all you have to say
     
  18. col_panic

    col_panic calm like a bomb Moderator

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    :rofl:

    that made me laugh my ass off

    as for the thread, i agree with chrontab (as usual) for the major part.

    to the original poster (who probably doesn't want to get in the middle of what this thread has become), please explain the purpose of the tv card and why hotswap is so sexy. explain what you are trying to do
     
  19. col_panic

    col_panic calm like a bomb Moderator

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    ok so doh

    you want large storage with redundancy and performance, but you also want streaming to multiple television outputs. you need:

    1. a server that records and stores data. this means a PVR card that will decode the signal and write to wherever. you can do this with a freevo (or you could buy a tivo - someone can probably tell you how to use that to do this on your network).

    http://freevo.sourceforge.net/

    note: 2 TB??? gdamn man, how much tv do you have time to watch?


    2. you are concerned about power outages, so that means a journaling filesystem. ext3 on linux is a good solution.

    3. hot swap is fucking expensive. if you are doing this for your house, don't pay for that. it really isn't critical, after all.
     
  20. Astro

    Astro Code Monkey

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    I think I just have to come out and just say this: you're being anal. (Now I remember why I don't visit here too often)
     
  21. Ximian

    Ximian New Member

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    Did you even look at the page? The graph text is barely visible, you need to put your face an inch from the screen to actually see it. Or turn your resolution to a lower size, but whatever works for you.
     
  22. zero xeal

    zero xeal Guest

    thank you for spelling it out, power outages wont be a problem, id feel like a moron to not have something that expensive on a UPS.

    the plans are to rip some tv, store music, movies, games, personal documents, and what ever else i download.

    the reason i want something that big is becuase i think i could fill a good amount of that in a month or 2. theres alot of cds in my house now, and i have friends with 70 gigs of music, alot of movies on dvd.... et. the idea is to be able to access the music all around the house, and preserve alot of media (there will be a tape drive in this machine). thank you all for your input on this, now im going to painstakingly reasearch all of this before i spend a cent :), hopes are that by the time i actually have this even bought, i will know solaris rather well, wich shouldnt be to hard seeing as i know my way around freebsd, and linux.
     
  23. col_panic

    col_panic calm like a bomb Moderator

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    :coold: i have something similar for storage and streaming, but on win32. the solaris part i will leave to others since i am a n00b there. i'm sure chrontab has plenty to offer.

    freevo is something i might implement this summer. i want an hauppage pvr 350 so i can capture and output to my bedroom tv. if and when i do this i will post pics and hurdles.
     

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