SRS So, I hold grudges.

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by M.A. Malone Esq., Jan 23, 2008.

  1. M.A. Malone Esq.

    M.A. Malone Esq. OT Supporter

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    Is that bad? If someone wrongs me in some way, sometimes in fairly minor ways, I won't hesitate to limit contact (or completely cut off contact) with them. My relationship with these people will never be the same because I won't let it. I think I feel I would lose respect of myself (and possibly from others) if I let someone wrong me and then let them back into my life like it never happened. I mean, how could I let myself trust someone (and let other people know I trust someone) who has hurt me in some way.

    It sucks because I think it might really be damaging to my social network. I feel people are really selfish and tend to do things that are ONLY in their best interest, even when it hurts, harms, or dissatisfies another person. But is it healthy to let, potentially, most of my relationships go to shit because I hold grudges? I'm not speaking about anything specific, but there are plenty of specific instances that I can think of at the moment.

    Side note: I'm glad I started to read this forum. I broke up with my GF a bit a go and I just wanted something to read that I could probably relate to, which this forum definently provides. I'm not a very open person and I like to keep my thoughts private. But maybe down the road, I'd be willing to open up here. But until then, I leave you with one of my more obvious problems.

    Thanks guys! :wavey:
     
  2. ChaCha

    ChaCha Active Member

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    Tool - The Grudge

    give it a listen
     
  3. METALLlC BLUE

    METALLlC BLUE New Member

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    Boundaries are arbitrary, set them with people depending on the context. I'll put it this way, if you disown every person who ever has or ever will hurt you in some form, you'll end up alone. Human beings hurt each other, but we also carry each other. You've hurt people too. Remember that. Treat others as you'd want them to treat you. When you've fallen short and hurt someone, if in sincerity you asked for forgiveness, and you made amends with that person, wouldn't you want that? You set the limits on what is intolerable, but do it relative to what is reasonable to expect from a human being, not a machine.

    Resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Focusing on what is in one's own best interest isn't wrong, but doing it at the expense of others can be. Ask yourself from your high horse what makes you the authority on condemnation? This isn't an insult, it's an observation. People are complex, but so are we. When we hurt others while seeking what is in our best interest, we're often not even aware we're hurting them. Are we responsible? Yes, and it's fine for others to get angry about it, to feel hurt (depending on the context) -- but is our anger, hurt, and condemnation in proportion to what is acceptable to that human beings capabilities?

    I'm glad you started reading the thread too. It appears to me you've been injured in the past on "major" issues, and as a defense you've gradually built walls to not only prevent major injury, but "all" injury, and thus you end up very alone in your "perfect" state. Perfection is found in the imperfection, it's our errors and our growth from "primitive" onward that declares our accomplishment. Without imperfection we simply can't exist. Do you condemn an infant for not running when it has not yet begun to walk? Then how can human beings meet expectations which exceed their humanity? Forgive those who come to you to make amends and to apologize sincerely, because they did not know.
     
  4. M.A. Malone Esq.

    M.A. Malone Esq. OT Supporter

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    This is true, I hurt people too. But I think I far make up for it in ways that I am a good person to these people. Sometimes I feel I am far too good a friend to others than they are to me. Nonetheless, yes, I would want to be forgiven for my mistakes. But then again, I think I realize when my mistakes are. Sometimes people don't even realize they hurt me (maybe because it was a minor issue or maybe because I don't communicate it to the other person). But is it okay to hold that grudge on them? I feel they should know better, but they don't. I feel they should be responsible. Ignorance is a terrible excuse to me. I hate it.

    Quick story: I broke up with my GF. I wanted her back a few weeks later. She said she needed time and did many things that I felt treated me like a trash. Didn't call when she said she would. Post-poned our lunch "talk" only to hang out with another guy. The whole needing-time-to-think thing. etc. But I ended it from there, because it became clear that she did not care for me as I thought she did. A week later, she contacts me basically wanting to get back together with me. The only problem is that she never apologized. Not even a sniff of apology. In fact, she didn't even feel there was anything to apologize for until I told her I couldn't forgive her for what she did. Now, It's not like I want to get back together (for this reason, and numerous others). But say this was a friendship. How could I connect with this person again? They don't even know they hurt me and couldn't even apologize until I called them out. And THEN apologize as if they were actually sorry for it, but did not feel there was an apology necessary 24 hours ago. Ignorance can't be a crutch. But is this what normal people do, allow others to use it as a crutch?

    Who am I to hold the authority of condemnation? Well, I'm me! I'm my mind, my body, and my life. I condemn them based on what I feel is right, but maybe I am often wrong in that aspect. I don't know. Maybe I don't know how to set up those boundaries, so I set up super-boundaries. I've always been told I'm a super-extreme person. That is, I'm like an all or nothing type of person. I don't talk about my personal life at all at work. When I get mad at my GF, it's often about little things (meaning that a minor thing can lead to a big fight--don't take this to mean that I have anger issues, because I don't. This is difficult to explain, but just trust me). I tend to be a happy person that seems to put on this facade of a good life, but I have problems and anger as well. I don't know where I was going with this last bit. But take it as you will.
     
  5. METALLlC BLUE

    METALLlC BLUE New Member

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    So we're talking about very specific people then.

    That's right. When I look at someone else and point the finger, I immediately remember that I have to look at myself. What is it in me that can change?

    No one knows unless you communicate it. We all have our own boundaries and if we aren't clear about them with the people in our lives, we can hardly cry foul should they go out of bounds (by our standards).

    Why would you break up with someone and then allow them back. I've never told you my rule about ending relationships have I?

    1: Never go back
    2: She hasn't changed
    3: You're going to get hurt somemore.

    You'll see me repeat that over and over here in the forums if you stick around. I chant it like a mantra.

    My list of red flags includes "Doesn't do what she says she will"

    Here I'll post my list:

    Sorry about all the numbers, I took it from another post:

    - Red Flags Avoid these people with these patterns: Abusive parents, abusive ex-husbands, abusive ex-boyfriends, alcoholism, drugs (1)hangs out/(6)talks to or talks about ex on first, second dates, negativity, (2)disrespectful, (4)confuses you, arrogance/condescending, Cheated in past, self-centered, (5)Breaks Dates, Makes excuses, lies, cusses a lot, (2)No Class, (6)Inflexible, (6)argues with you, (6)Distrusting, Bitter, Nags, gossips. (3)Women who say something, but their actions and body language reflect different signals. Women with low self-esteem, fixated on money, or have psychological problems, or psychiatric problems. Remember, life isn't fair. I personally fall into some of these areas, and I'd expect a female to be ruthless in cutting me off too if she felt I wouldn't be a good mate for her.

    Red flag: Disrespect, and Date Breaking

    You did the right thing.

    If you expressed how you felt, then it's reasonable to expect an apology. If you didn't, then it's unreasonable. Express how you feel, request and apology. If you get anything other than an apology, you know she's a person you shouldn't associate with. You already should know that though, given all the red flags.

    If you specifically told her what you felt, and she didn't feel that an apology was needed, then that's another red flag. Makes excuses, Disrespectful, and no class.

    If you can't tolerate the red flags, then you can't connect with them. You can't accept the unacceptable. We all have our line in the sand that we have to toe.

    This is what "some" people do, and they are people you need to walk away from. Demand respect, express your feelings and thoughts, ask for what you want and need -- and when all is said, if they don't meet your minimum expectations, then you walk. However, do not hold a resentment, because like I said, it's poison, and it will damage you, not them. Say your peace, then wash your hands of people who step over your boundaries after you've done those three steps:

    Demand Respect,
    Self-Expression,
    Request needs/wants (Minimum expectations) be met.

    You have to keep your side of the street clean before expecting others to do so. You would expect others to meet the three steps, yes? If they didn't and they held resentments or felt hurt, it would be quite disturbing don't you think? If you did your part, then you wouldn't hold a resentment. It's when you've missed a step of the 3, that you hold grudges.

    This is exactly why resentment/grudges are all about you. Sure people wrong you and make mistakes, sure some people outright don't care about you and disrespect you -- but you're responsible for how you allow the experience to endure. Keep your side of the street clean by doing the three steps, and setting reasonable expectations. And another thing, when you approach someone to tell them how you feel, do it from the perspective of "how you feel, not "you did this and this and this." Keep it simple:

    You: I felt very disrespected when the date we made was broken even if you had something else you wanted or needed to do.
    Her: I'm sorry. I didn't know you felt that way.
    You: Cool

    End of problem. Or:

    You: You make me so angry, you broke this date and it's very disrespectful.
    Her: Why are you so angry, (Random excuses, trails off.......
    You: God damnit, blah blah blah (Resentment and argument)

    Problem continues. Or

    You: Nothing
    Her: (Walks all over you having no sense of your boundaries)
    You: Brewing resentment and anger.

    Problem not only continues, but escalates to the point of damaging other relationships.

    No you don't have serious angry issues you have control issues. You demand people meet "minimum" standards which are in-fact unreasonable in contrast to the average human being. You expect people to be like you, as close to perfection as possible. Now I don't want you to think I'm beating you up here, I'm simply telling you the truth as I see it from an outside perspective. I know where you're coming from, I was in your shoes.

    You must be willing to change "you" in order to reduce your own resentments (which breed unhappiness), and that means being crystal clear with people about respecting you, expressing yourself openly and honestly without blaming or pointing the finger, and finally asking people to meet "reasonable" expectations about what you need and want.

    Have you ever heard the story about the Japanese willow? Let me tell you this parable in order you can remember it during times of extremism, perfectionism and inflexibility.

    During a raging storm one winter there sat a flexible seemingly weak willow and a ferociously large oak beside
    one another. [SIZE=+1]Eventually snow began falling, piling up on the branches of the oak tree, and the willow. As the snow accumulated the inflexible branches of the oak began cracking beneath the pressure. Meanwhile the willow branches bent down arching beneath the weight. Inch by inch, the snow came floating down, so seemingly light, so innocent. The branches on the oak snap, sending sound waves racing through the forrest stirring animals as they're alarmed. As the sun arose days later, the willow gradually rebounded quite gently, the snow falling off as it melts. The oak unfortunate did fair as well.

    You have to be flexible in order you don't break, you must be flexible with others as well.

    [/SIZE]

    I take it as exactly I've seen in a lot of other young men. You aren't unique, you aren't perfect and you never will be. Neither will anyone else you associate with. Work on improving your communication with others and being aware of what your needs and wants are. Set flexible boundaries for the vast majority of circumstances that come your way in the average day of the average human being, but hold your convictions when it's an issue you can't tolerate at all, as it either injures you or another in any form if you should endure it.

    There is one last thing. Apply this advice to yourself too, I'm almost certain you're hard on yourself too, unreasonably so probably.
     
  6. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    Awesome list.
     
  7. eXyle

    eXyle ׂ

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    i used to hold grudges all the time and over silly little things too. worst of all, I rarely told them about it, i simply cut them off with no warning, so to speak. however, the only one suffering was me. i don't necessarily continue to hold grudges, but I don't invest any emotion (be it positive or negative) in to people who have wronged me and have done nothing to make amends.

    if you do something that I do not like, I'll let you know. if you apologize, then all is well. however, if you dismiss me and make no attempts to understand why i am upset or to make amends, then it's obvious to me that you do not value me as a person and as such, i won't invest any emotion. in a respectful manner i let them know this and move on with my life. i remain friendly and polite when i run into them, but that's it. my motives aren not coming from a place of anger either, so there's no lingering resentment.

    you have to define your boundaries and stick to them. for me, I had to realize what was worth getting upset over and what wasn't. stealing is one thing and not returning my phone call when i expect you to, is another. focus on the large issues and don't let the little things bother you.

    also, communication is key. you need to let them know when they overstep their boundaries so they can at least attempt to right the "wrong". if they don't, you need to communicate that you will be "cutting" them off as a result. not as an ultimatum, but simply as a way to "protect" yourself.

    you want to surround yourself with people who will be a positive force in your life. those people will also apologize when they've wronged you and you bring it to their attention. those who don't, are the ones you would remove from your immediate circle of influence. while it is a way of cutting them off, it's not a grudge, nor should it be.
     
  8. METALLlC BLUE

    METALLlC BLUE New Member

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    I thought so too the day I sat down to think about it and write it. I could have added so much more, but so many things fit into some of the broader words. I mean we all know when we feel disrespected (most of us anyway). We all know how we feel when someone lies to us and we're aware of it.

    It made perfect sense to look out at the world and see what I do and don't like! Then, I apply them to the women I date.

    Of course I use some discretion and consider the amount of flexibility I use depending on the context. If someone lies to me about liking the sandwich I made them when in-fact it tasted like ass, verse lying to me about stealing money from me -- the context is clear! If something isn't clear to me after careful though, I said on caution. Which solution will serve "me" best. That's how I do things, and it's a good way to be happy and to live!
     
  9. METALLlC BLUE

    METALLlC BLUE New Member

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    Good post.
     
  10. eXyle

    eXyle ׂ

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    you have to be a bit more dynamic in your approach. if it was in the early stages of a friendship, yes, ignorance is a viable reason. also, you have to take in to account the person's level of social skills. i can't get mad at someone who lacks social skills and does something wrong when i knew they lacked those skills and still tried to be friends with them. i knew what i was getting into beforehand.

    as the person gets to know you, they will know what their boundaries are and as the friendship grows, there will be far less incidences of them "wronging" you. (stress and foul moods can and will lead to misunderstandings from time to time, but they will recognize it and apologize afterwards). however, you need to do your part. you need to define your boundaries from the beginning. everytime they overstep one, you let them know. eventually, they'll get a feel for the type of person you are and you won't have to verbally communicate everything. i'm sure there are friends that you know what they're thinking without them saying anything, right?

    if you don't define your boundaries, how will they ever know that they are overstepping them. you cannot reasonably get angry with them for doing something they did not know was wrong by you if you've never communicated it to begin with.
     
  11. eXyle

    eXyle ׂ

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    this part is crucial! the idea is to handle the situation maturely and quickly so that you can move on. if you "attack" the other person, they will become defensive and you will get no where. however, if you express yourself in a calm manner and get to the root of the issue (which is how they're actions made you feel), it will be a lot easier and quicker to resolve the matter without any negative feelings.

    personally, i use the x,y,z approach. you did x, which made me feel y, would've preferred if you did z.
     
  12. Yuppy

    Yuppy Have a seat right there....

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    yea its bad. esp if it makes you unhappy. but its up to you to decide what you do.
     
  13. blackbirdbeatle

    blackbirdbeatle New Member

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    Grudges will eat you up inside and make you a very bitter person. It will show eventually and nobody wants to hang out with that person. Forgiving and letting go is the best thing you can do for yourself.
     
  14. M.A. Malone Esq.

    M.A. Malone Esq. OT Supporter

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    The poison thing is a very good example, thanks for that. That, in itself, puts it in persepctive. I've got three problems with all that has been said, though:

    1. Sure, I often don't communicate how upset I am. But there are times where I feel the other person should know. I mean, it should be blatantly obvious. But is it not as obvious to them as it is to me?

    2. If I allow people to hurt me and then let them back in, what kind of person do I look at? I mean, if it's something small, and then other things that are small follow it, I'm just a door-mat, right? I mean, you can just hurt me all you want, as long as it is small. That is until, of course, when it is something big and it becomes no big deal, because well, I forgive people for everything else.

    3. This is my own problem that I probably just need to fix, but COMMUNICATION. I mean, I don't communicate well about my self. I don't like to open up. Maybe I feel it makes me feel more vulnerable. I don't know. Communicating problems I have with other people just seems like it would be damaging to my social image, however vain that sounds.

    I mean, I feel that I may end up with two ultimate outcomes. 1. I end up alienating most or all of my social network because I hate everybody. 2. My social network consists of people that may hurt me often.

    -And before you say, "make new friends." Realize that I am very private, so it's difficult for people to befriend me. Maybe that's why I'm clutching on to the "friends" I already have.
     
  15. METALLlC BLUE

    METALLlC BLUE New Member

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    Fair enough. Let's try putting that into perspective too then so you can find solutions that you understand but also find reasonable.

    That's correct, it's not as obvious to them as it is you, because you're not communicating to them in a way which is effective. Either you often don't communicate, or you communicate poorly and expect the other person should just know what you feel offended by. People usually do understand the blatantly "big" things without being told, but the smaller details of life are far more vague unless someone indicates it directly, calmly, and openly. Now down below I posted an article and I have highlighted sections and numbed them in color to connect you with each section of your questions and statements which provide the solution. The article is written by Professional who specializes in communication and relationship interactions.

    It is your responsibility to set "reasonable" boundaries , meaning something that's inbetween the extremes you've come to depend on. If you express with kindness but also clarity what you do not want or do not like, others will feel respected by that. Speak directly, openly and be candid, while also respecting them in the process. Do this with people when they offend you.

    The type of boundary you have been setting has been the extremes between diffuse and rigid boundaries: Let me show you what both are:

    If you have rigid boundaries, then barriers may exist that keep you from having meaningful [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] important [FONT=Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]relationships[/FONT][/FONT] understanding with others. People who have rigid boundaries can become isolated or withdrawn from people, which can cause relationships to suffer. A diffuse boundary is the opposite of a rigid boundary; people with diffuse boundaries do not have clear, definable boundaries with others, and such individuals can have problems defining who they are
    need to set would be called "Diffuse" boundaries: They are defined by,

    This goes back to the list of Ineffective Communication in red. Being passive, hiding your thoughts or feelings, and tolerating what is unacceptable are all ways to avoid demonstrating your respect for yourself and others. When you stand up and tell people how you feel about something, they can either accept it or not -- but if you'd done it with kindness, direct, and openly, while respecting them. If they don't accept it, then you act accordingly, either avoiding dealing with them on that specific subject, or you can remove them from your lives. There are many ways to handle those who don't respect you depending on the person, the environment, and the relationship.

    I wouldn't even quite call it a problem, but rather it's a set of behaviors that just don't serve you at this time in your life. They may have been very useful at another point, you understand? Now it's time to open up in a way that doesn't consume and ruin you, but yet allows people to respect you for the issues your respect yourself on. Communication is that important.

    What you fear, is what you create. If you fear damaging your social image by not communicating, that's exactly what you create -- damaged social image, because eventually it erodes beneath the pressure of trying to keep the facade going. Who you truly are are the things you feel inside in response to the world around you, but once you feel them, then it's your responsibility to process them into a reasonable logical way, that can honor your needs and wants, while also honoring other people.

    Because you function between extremes, this is why you've been unable to make this connection. It is my hope that after reading these articles below you can choose a few of the tips and tools, and begin "gently" practicing them. I'm asking you not to go to an extreme and try to do it all at once. Just pick one or two, and take your time. If you do, you'll be much happier, I assure you.

    And that is the result of Rigid communication on one extreme (first one) and diffuse for the second.

    One is an aggressive boundary (Rigid): it is often unspoken, but the boundaries are drawn everywhere and aren't flexible nor forgiving.

    And the second one about social networks consisting of people hurting you is the result of Diffuse communication: Being passive, Hidding true feelings, being "overly" flexible in order to keep people from abandoning you, upsetting your social image, etc but at the expense of having people around you who hurt you."

    In the end, this pattern creates the exact opposite of what you actually want. I understand it's terrifying to make some changes, but to gain the skills and results you want, the risk will need to be taken at some time. You already know the results of not doing it, so what about all the great things you can have if you do change?

    I understand. Please read these articles below. Both are written by professionals in the respective specialties I've discussed with you here.

    BOUNDARIES OF WELL-BEING: by William F. Ritchie, M.S.

    EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION AND HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS by Phil Rich, Ed.D., MSW


     
  16. METALLlC BLUE

    METALLlC BLUE New Member

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    That took me over an hour to write. I hope you appreciate it. :o
     
  17. KatWoman

    KatWoman •••••••••••

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    Holding onto wrongs of the past, prevents you from moving on to better things in the future :o
     
  18. daxtrader

    daxtrader New Member

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    WOW. That just changed my life. Thank you once again Metallic.
     
  19. M.A. Malone Esq.

    M.A. Malone Esq. OT Supporter

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    Thanks for that MB. I read the article but it doesn't seem like anything said in there is different from what you said. I'm pretty tired right now, though. Maybe I'll really read it when I'm more awake. Thanks for the time being, though.
     
  20. ChaCha

    ChaCha Active Member

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    DON'T HOLD GRUDGES!

    how would you feel if some girl held a grudge on you over how you acted during a game of beer pong. Grow up, seriously.
     
  21. METALLlC BLUE

    METALLlC BLUE New Member

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    You're welcome. The point to the redundant message in the articles was to show you that I'm not giving you advice based on my opinion, but that these things have been studied and specialists in these fields hold the same standards. You're not the first to encounter them. Tools to work thru these things are available if you're willing and that is what these articles express.

    It works if you work it. You can do it man. If everyone made the effort to look at themselves and really strive to improve, then all of us would have much better relationships.
     
  22. Wishgiving

    Wishgiving New Member

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    I don't think you should be too hard on yourself. We all learn how to forgive and how to interact with those that are close to us. There is no "normal", and I think that it's great that you want to better yourself in this way. This thread is full of great advice and you're one step ahead for taking the initiative.
     

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