GUN Self-defense slayings rise against intruders

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by TL1000RSquid, Dec 6, 2008.

  1. TL1000RSquid

    TL1000RSquid ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Self-defense slayings rise against intruders
    States' castle laws, backed by NRA, try to justify shootings similar to Joe Horn case in Pasadena
    By SHELIA BYRD
    Associated Press
    Dec. 6, 2008, 12:36AM
    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6149984.html

    JACKSON, MISS. — A convenience store clerk chased down a man and shot him dead over a case of beer this summer and was charged with murder. A week later, a clerk at another Jackson convenience store followed and fatally shot a man he said tried to rob him, and authorities let him go without charges.

    Police say the robber in the second case was armed, while the man accused of stealing beer was not.

    Just the same, the legal plights of the two clerks highlight the uncertain impact of National Rifle Association-backed laws sweeping the nation that make it easier to justify shooting in self-defense.

    In 2006, Mississippi adopted its version of the so-called castle doctrine, which lifts requirements that individuals first try to flee before using deadly force to counter a threat in their homes, vehicles or, in Mississippi's case, at work.

    Gun rights advocates who have helped pass the law in 23 states since 2003 say it removes an unfair legal penalty for people exercising a constitutional right in a life-or-death emergency, though some police and prosecutors are skeptical of self-defense claims under the law.

    An Associated Press review found a growing number of cases but no clear trend yet in how the law is applied or how cases will be resolved in court.

    All a defendant has to do is establish a threat, and usually the other witness is dead. That shifts the burden to prosecutors and police investigators, who have to gather evidence to show beyond a reasonable doubt that deadly force wasn't justified, according to a report released this summer by the National District Attorneys Association.

    "It's very difficult to prove a negative," said Steven Jansen, president of the NDAA. "It might be a little too early to get the overall effect through the court process because we're just seeing the cases enter the court and finding out how the judges are going to rule."

    Suspect shot twice
    Sarbrinder Pannu, the first clerk, alleged that James Hawthorne grabbed beer from a cooler and left without paying for it. Police Lt. Jeffery Scott said Pannu followed Hawthorne outside the store and shot him twice.

    Surinder Singh, president of the Jackson Indian Storeowners Association and a spokesman for Pannu, said Mississippi's law gives you the right to protect your property.

    "For them, it's a case of beer. For us, it's our property," Singh said. "That person didn't have respect for his life. He put his life against one case of beer."

    Police and prosecutors disagreed and charged Pannu with murder and shooting into an occupied vehicle. Pannu has not entered a plea and has declined to be interviewed.

    About a week after Hawthorne was killed, a clerk at another Jackson convenience store chased and fatally shot a clown mask-wearing robber outside the store after he stole cash from the register. The clerk wasn't charged.

    Police didn't release the clerk's name because he wasn't charged. As with Hawthorne's shooting, the case will be presented to a grand jury, though police said the second clerk was justified because he felt a clear and present danger.

    "The first thing about it is that you want to fairly apply the law," said Scott, who helped investigate both shootings and pointed out that the second robber was armed. "The problem is that there's an exception to every rule."

    Castle doctrine laws drew national attention when Joe Horn of Pasadena shot and killed two men in November 2007 after he saw them crawling out of the windows of a neighbor's house, carrying bags of the neighbor's possessions.

    Horn said the shooting was justified by Texas' law, and a grand jury declined to indict him.

    Cases this year have included a man in San Antonio who shot and killed an intruder who climbed through his bedroom window and a Lexington, Ky., man who shot through his house's front door, killing a man who had been beating on it. No charges were filed in either case.

    A woman in Missouri, which enacted its castle doctrine last year, could still face charges for shooting her former boyfriend after he came through the window of her home. A coroner's jury in Adair County ruled that Jackie Gleason committed a felony when she killed Rogelio Johnson in May. Prosecutors said the jury might not have understood the law and have asked the state attorney general to review whether to file formal charges.

    The law's rapid rollout across nearly half the nation is largely the result of lobbying by the NRA. Most of the state laws, including Mississippi's, are patterned after Florida's.

    Michael Edmondson, who works in the state attorney's office in Palm Beach County, said castle-doctrine claims have increased since the law took effect three years ago.

    A lack of confidence
    Andrew Arulanandam, director of public affairs for the NRA, dismissed concerns about the law being misused or misinterpreted, saying all cases are reviewed by law enforcement authorities.

    The laws have become popular in a country that's grown increasingly anxious, said Mat Heck, prosecuting attorney for Montgomery County in Ohio, where a castle doctrine law went into effect in September.

    "There really is a change in perception of public safety after 9/11," Heck said. "Citizens are just anxious. They fear attacks, not only from the terrorists abroad, but from residents here in our own country."

    A lack of confidence in the justice system and the perception that defendants' rights overshadow victims' are other reasons cited in the NDAA report.

    Heck said his state's law pertains to a person's home and car, and is only applied when someone has unlawfully entered.

    "We tried to make it somewhat restrictive so it wasn't like the old wild, wild West," Heck said.

    Pannu is free on $50,000 bond and has returned to the store, where jugs of candy clutter the cashier's counter and pictures of Pannu standing with $1,000 winners of scratch-off games are posted on the bulletproof barrier that separated him from Hawthorne on Aug. 17.

    "The real debate is 'Can you kill a man for shoplifting?' " said Dennis Sweet, a Jackson attorney representing Hawthorne's family in a lawsuit against Pannu and A&H Food Mart.

    "The guy was in his truck leaving," Sweet said. "He posed no danger."
     
  2. PanzerAce

    PanzerAce Active Member

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    Um....isn't that the way it's supposed to be?
     
  3. striker754

    striker754 Chillin

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    some bitch got shot a couple days ago here in TX trying to steal a car
     
  4. Joe_Cool

    Joe_Cool Never trust a woman or a government. Moderator

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    I'm all for it. If it keeps up, eventually we'll run out of intruders to shoot. We win by attrition.
     
  5. blindarrow

    blindarrow New Member

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    I agree.

    Guy who chased down and shot a man over a case of beer I'm iffy on.. just because the guy was already done being a threat.
     
  6. benelli

    benelli Active Member

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    I don't understand about the laws in this country, the criminals demand that they have rights...If you decided to commit crimes, you loose every rights.

    So now the victim is facing a lawsuit by...the criminal. How stupid!
     
  7. Joe_Cool

    Joe_Cool Never trust a woman or a government. Moderator

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    My rule of thumb is this: If a property crime is IN PROGRESS, I'm cool with shooting to stop it. Once it's completed, then holster that shit. It's now a job for the police and insurance company.

    That doesn't apply to serious crimes, like rape and murder and battery. I'd shoot somebody running away after committing a murder.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2008
  8. TL1000RSquid

    TL1000RSquid ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    I read about that one if I remember correctly the guy was in his late 30's and had a long criminal record, so no loss to the world IMO.
     
  9. benelli

    benelli Active Member

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    Your suggestion is letting these hoodlums "smash&dash"

    If you were the owner, would you have done the same?
     
  10. Valence

    Valence Gustav Refugee

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    It is very easy to sit on a high horse and say that you can't shoot the man for stealing beer. He posed no danger and had no weapon... however if someone invaded your home, had only a dvd player in his hands and was walking away, many would still shoot and say that is justified. I personally think that theft is theft, and for items like beer, or dvd players... robbed from either a store or a home, shouldn't result in someone getting in trouble with the law. We need to use armed citizens as a deterrent to crime.
     
  11. Joe_Cool

    Joe_Cool Never trust a woman or a government. Moderator

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    There's a big difference between your home and a store that you run. One is a public place, the other is not.
     
  12. Valence

    Valence Gustav Refugee

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    Doesn't matter. Private property is private property. The items in the store are the exclusive property of the owner until the sale transaction takes place. If one were to use the argument of "protection of your home and / or property by use of deadly force" I would think it applies no matter where the location. If someone tried to steal your car in public versus stealing your car out of your driveway or garage, I don't think you'd try to make a distinction before you pulled the trigger.
     
  13. benelli

    benelli Active Member

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    Regardless, your properties are being taken away illegally. So does it matter where they are located? house/car/business/pockets


    :bigthumb:

    The moment that you rob/steal you have no more rights!
     
  14. Joe_Cool

    Joe_Cool Never trust a woman or a government. Moderator

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    :rolleyes:

    If you don't understand the difference between shooting an intruder in your home and shooting a guy running away from your store with something he shoplifted, then having this conversation with you is pointless.
     
  15. Valence

    Valence Gustav Refugee

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    I understand the difference perfectly. I still say that he was in the right for doing that, as private property is private property, no matter what location you were in. Everyone always takes up for the criminals in this respect, including yourself.
    I say let store owners shoot the motherfuckers and then let's see how many people shoplift.
     
  16. Joe_Cool

    Joe_Cool Never trust a woman or a government. Moderator

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    I don't think I agree. More importantly, the law doesn't agree. Shooting a shoplifter who's running away is murder or (if you're lucky) manslaughter. Do it if you want, but you'll probably end up in prison.
     
  17. benelli

    benelli Active Member

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    Valance is trying to say: the intruder is running a way from your house with your PS3 or whatever, is the same as that robber running away from the store with a six pack

    I don't see any different.
     
  18. Joe_Cool

    Joe_Cool Never trust a woman or a government. Moderator

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    You're right, it's not any different. If you shoot a guy who's running away from your house with your PS3, you'll end up in prison, same as the shoplifter.
     
  19. benelli

    benelli Active Member

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    Do you agree with the law?
     
  20. striker754

    striker754 Chillin

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    ORLY?

    "A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect his property to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, theft during the nighttime or criminal mischief during the nighttime, and he reasonably believes that the property cannot be protected by any other means."

    "A person is justified in using deadly force against another to pervent the other who is fleeing after committing burglary, robbery, or theft during the nighttime, from escaping with the property and he reasonable believes that the property cannot be recovered by any other means; or, the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the property would expose him or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. (Nighttime is defined as the period 30 minutes after sunset until 30 minutes before sunrise.)"

    God bless Texas.
     
  21. benelli

    benelli Active Member

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    :bowdown: :bowdown:
     
  22. Joe_Cool

    Joe_Cool Never trust a woman or a government. Moderator

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    :mamoru: Most of us aren't fortunate enough to live in Texas. :mamoru:
     
  23. Valence

    Valence Gustav Refugee

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    werd. despite all the hate, and jokes - I'm still proud to live in a place that has less liberal "protect the criminals" bullshit than most other places.
     
  24. HisXLNC

    HisXLNC ๑۩۞۩๑ Hot ๑۩۞۩๑

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    They reproduce faster than you can shoot them.
     
  25. benelli

    benelli Active Member

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    Maybe we just need to put an end to the welfare system and they will extinct, less bloody.
     

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