Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Jyokker, Mar 16, 2008.
Can anyone confirm this?
bull-fucking-shit you couldn't even make a joke about drop weapons without an NCIS agent wanting to investigate
I can find no substantiating articles outside of the usual politically motivated sites.
I know that Escalation Of Force rules have as their foundation the premise that whatever force you use against someone should be proportionate to the threat they pose.
So yeah. Garret Reppenhagen has made a name for himself with this story, but I see no proof.
story wreaks of bullshit.
^^^^ More than that. I was in a trans unit last deployment and while the ROE was to fire if we were underthreat or felt that our lives were under threat (with or without shots being fired at us) if someone tried to pull some bs like that your ass would be grass. With peoples mind sets these days you have no chance or getting away with shooting a civilian.
Every now and then I run across an article that comes from an unfamiliar source. Thank you guys for clearing this up. While I am sure the events above most likely have happened, it is a far cry from the normal day to day operations.
maybe they meant blackwater was doing that
it's supposedly a "recollection" from a troop.
my bullshit alarm is going off. you must have P.I.D. to shoot, or in certain circumstances R.I.D. (positive/reasonable identification respectively) drop shovels=
Yeah. I've been to well over 200 mission briefings, and in every single one of them we get hammered with EOF procedures and what does/doesn't constitute PID.
And ANY time that we fire our weapon, even if all we do is fire a warning shot, there is ALWAYS an investigation into the incident. Sworn statements from witnesses, pictures, number of rounds fired, evidence from the scene (if available), etc.
Not in MNF-W
Unfortunately this bullshit propaganda will be the favorite reading material for every anti-war college student.
And they will spread it like gospel.
cliffs at bottom.
US/IRAQ: Rules of Engagement "Thrown Out the Window"
By Dahr Jamail
SILVER SPRING, Maryland, Mar 15 (IPS) - Garret Reppenhagen received integral training about the Geneva Conventions and the Rules of Engagement during his deployment in Kosovo. But in Iraq, "Much of this was thrown out the window," he says.
"The men I served with are professionals," Reppenhagen told the audience at a panel of U.S. veterans speaking of their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan, "They went to Iraq to defend the U.S. But we found rapidly we were killing Iraqis in horrible ways. But we had to in order to remain safe ourselves. The war is the atrocity."
The event, which has drawn international media attention, was organised by Iraq Veterans Against the War. It aims to show that their stories of wrongdoing in both countries were not isolated incidents limited to a few "bad apples", as the Pentagon claims, but were everyday occurrences.
The panel on the "Rules of Engagement" (ROE) during the first full day of the gathering, named "Winter Soldier" to honour a similar gathering 30 years ago of veterans of the Vietnam War, was held in front of a visibly moved audience of several hundred, including veterans from Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam. Winter soldiers, according to U.S. founding father Thomas Paine, are the people who stand up for the soul of their country, even in its darkest hours
Reppenhagen served in Iraq from February 2004-2005 in the city of Baquba, 40 kms northeast of Baghdad. He said his first experience in Iraq was being on a patrol that killed two Iraqi farmers as they worked in their field at night.
"I was told they were out in the fields farming because their pumps only operated with electricity, which meant they had to go out in the dark when there was electricity," he explained, "I asked the sergeant, if he knew this, why did he fire on the men. He told me because the men were out after curfew. I was never given another ROE during my time in Iraq."
Another veteran of the occupation of Iraq on the panel was Vincent Emmanuel. He served in the Marines near the northern Iraqi city of Al-Qaim during 2004-2005. Emmanuel explained that "taking potshots at cars that drove by" happened all the time and "these were not isolated incidents".
Emmanuel continued: "We took fire while trying to blow up a bridge. Many of the attackers were part of the general population. This led to our squad shooting at everything and anything in order to push through the town. I remember myself emptying magazines into the town, never identifying a target."
As other panelists nodded in agreement, Emmanuel spoke of abusing prisoners who he knew were innocent, adding, "We took it upon ourselves to harass them, and took them to the desert to throw them out of our Humvees, while kicking and punching them when we threw them out."
Two other soldiers testified about planting weapons or shovels on civilians they had accidentally shot, to justify the killings by implying the dead were fighters or people attempting to plant roadside bombs.
Jason Washburn was a corporal in the marines, and served three tours in Iraq, his last in Haditha from 2005-2006.
"We were encouraged to bring 'drop weapons' or shovels, in case we accidentally shot a civilian, we could drop the weapon on the body and pretend they were an insurgent," he said, "By the third tour, if they were carrying a shovel or bag, we could shoot them. So we carried these tools and weapons in our vehicles, so we could toss them on civilians when we shot them. This was commonly encouraged."
Washburn explained that his ROE changed "a lot".
"The higher the threat level, the more viciously we were told to respond. We had towns that were deemed 'free fire zones'. One time there was a mayor of a town near Haditha that got shot up. We were shown this as an example because there was a nice tight shot group on the windshield, and told that was a good job, that was what Marines were supposed to do. And that was the mayor of the town."
Jason Wayne Lemieux is a Marine who served three tours in Iraq.
"My commander told me, 'Kill those who need to be killed, and save those who need to be saved', that was our mission on our first tour," he said of his first deployment during the invasion nearly five years ago.
Lemieux continued, "After that the ROE changed, and carrying a shovel, or standing on a rooftop talking on a cell phone, or being out after curfew [meant the people] were to be killed. I can't tell you how many people died because of this. By my third tour, we were told to just shoot people, and the officers would take care of us."
John Michael Turner served two tours in the Marines as a machine gunner in Iraq. Visibly upset, he told the audience, "I was taught as a Marine to eat the apple to the core." Turner then pulled his military metals off his shirt and threw them on the ground.
"Apr. 18, 2006 was the date of my first confirmed kill," he said sombrely. "He was innocent, I called him the fat man. He was walking back to his house and I killed him in front of his father and friend. My first shot made him scream and look into my eyes, so I looked at my friend and said, 'Well, I can't let that happen', and shot him again. After my first kill I was congratulated."
Turner explained one reason why establishment media reporting about the occupation in the U.S. has been largely sanitised. "Anytime we had embedded reporters, our actions changed drastically," he explained. "We did everything by the books, and were very low key."
To conclude, an emotional Turner said, "I want to say I'm sorry for the hate and destruction that I and others have inflicted on innocent people. It is not okay, and this is happening, and until people hear what is going on this is going to continue. I am no longer the monster that I once was."
Winter Soldier Investigation
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For other uses, see Winter Soldier (disambiguation) The "Winter Soldier Investigation" was a media event sponsored by the Vietnam Veterans Against the War intended to publicize war crimes and atrocities by the United States Armed Forces and their allies in the Vietnam War. The VVAW challenged the morality and conduct of the war by showing the direct relationship between military policies and war crimes in Vietnam. The three-day gathering of 109 veterans and 16 civilians took place in Detroit, Michigan, from January 31-February 2, 1971. Discharged servicemen from each branch of military service, as well as civilian contractors, medical personnel and academics, all gave testimony about war crimes they had committed or witnessed during the years of 1963-1970.
With the exception of Pacifica Radio, the event was not covered extensively outside Detroit. However, several journalists and film crews recorded the event, and a documentary film called Winter Soldier was released in 1972. A complete transcript was later entered into the Congressional Record by Senator Mark Hatfield, prompting the Fulbright Hearings in April and May 1973, convened by Senator J. William Fulbright, chair of the United States Senate Committee on Foreign Relations.
On January 31, 1971, members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) met in a Detroit hotel to discuss war crimes they claimed to have participated in or witnessed during their combat tours in Vietnam. During the next three days, more than 100 Vietnam veterans and 16 civilians gave anguished, emotional testimony describing hundreds of atrocities against innocent civilians in South Vietnam, including rape, arson, torture, murder, and the shelling or napalming of entire villages. The witnesses stated that these acts were being committed casually and routinely, under orders, as a matter of policy.
In April, the VVAW stormed Washington in a week-long protest. At its height, spokesman John Kerry went before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations to accuse the United States military of committing massive numbers of war crimes in Vietnam. The appearance launched Kerry's political career. The charges he made shocked and sickened a nation, changed the course of a war and stained the reputation of the American military for decades.
But the mass murder of civilians was never American policy in Vietnam. War crimes were the exception, not the rule. And the Winter Soldier tribunal itself -- which John Kerry had helped moderate -- turned out to be "packed with pretenders and liars."
What happened when military investigators asked the "winter soldiers" for evidence of all the war crimes they had alleged? Mostly stonewalling, backtracking, and statements that failed to support the VVAW's claims...
Army CID Investigations of VVAW War Crimes Allegations
The CID summary reports are revealing. Most of the WSI participants refused to provide evidence to support their allegations. Some made statements that were contradicted by other witnesses, were discredited, or were not substantiated by subsequent investigation.
Several of the VVAW activists backtracked significantly on their WSI statements:
· Douglas Craig claimed at WSI that members of his battalion had fired mortar rounds each night into a local dump, intentionally killing civilians who were scavenging for food. Craig told investigators he had no direct knowledge of these events and expressed misgivings about making allegations in Detroit he could not substantiate.
· Larry Craig claimed at WSI that he watched US soldiers murder a Vietnamese civilian and, on another occasion, desecrate Vietnamese graves. Craig admitted to investigators that the man who was killed could have been Vietcong, and that the soldier allegedly digging in a cemetery could have been looking for weapons caches.
· Donald Donner claimed at WSI that Army personnel had murdered a Vietnamese male, intentionally wounded a 14-year-old Vietnamese girl, indiscriminately slaughtered livestock and failed to bury enemy dead. Donner admitted to the CID that his stories were actually lies, rumors and accounts of accidental events.
· John Lytle claimed at WSI that his unit murdered civilians by destroying villages with artillery fire without making any effort to determine who was there. However, Lytle told the CID that the villages were actually fired on because it was suspected that Vietcong occupied them and incoming fire had been received from the area.
· Robert McConnachie claimed at WSI that Army troops in a convoy threw C-ration cans at Vietnamese children with such force as to kill one or two. He also said an artillery unit had intentionally shelled a hospital and killed civilians. McConnachie backtracked when questioned by military investigators, saying that no Vietnamese children were actually killed by troops throwing C-rations. He said he now believed that the alleged killing of civilians in a hospital by artillery fire was accidental.
· Ronald Palosaari claimed at WSI that Army troops killed two children and an old lady by throwing a grenade into a bunker next to a house. He also said he saw a Vietnamese soldier cut off the ear of a NVA soldier who had just been killed. Interviewed by Army investigators, Palosaari was unable to provide specific dates, locations or the names of any individuals involved in the alleged grenade incident. He admitted that he did not actually witness the mutilation of any enemy dead.
· Donald Pugsley claimed at WSI that a helicopter gunship strafed and killed water buffalo. He admitted to investigators that no water buffalo were actually fired upon.
· Kenneth Ruth claimed at WSI to have witnessed the torture of Vietcong suspects, and told Life Magazine that he saw troops test fire weapons into a village, wounding 43 civilians. However, Ruth admitted to Army investigators that he had no personal knowledge of such an event. The CID found his torture claims unsubstantiated.
· George Smith claimed at WSI that members of his Special Forces unit had beaten enemy prisoners and placed them in small barbed-wire cages. Smith backtracked on these claims when interviewed by Army investigators, saying that the alleged acts were actually committed by South Vietnamese forces rather than American troops.
· David Stark claimed at WSI that hundreds of Vietnamese civilians were killed by indiscriminate bombing and strafing in the Saigon area during late 1968. He also claimed to have witnessed the maltreatment of prisoners. However, Stark told CID interviewers that he actually saw no bodies, was unable to identify the aircraft or military units involved in the attacks or the cleanup operation, and admitted that he had never witnessed maltreatment of prisoners, except for a single occasion when he said he saw a prisoner pushed and shoved by two South Vietnamese officers.
The only Army witness to appear at WSI whose allegations have been substantiated was James Henry. Military authorities closed Henry's case, which had already been under review for nearly a year by the time of WSI, after "an extensive investigation did not reveal sufficient evidence to prove or disprove Mr. Henry's allegations." However, the CID also opened a supplemental investigation into whether a group of civilians had been killed by US troops. The results of that investigation indicate that crimes were probably committed, but no documentation of any prosecutions has been found or reported.
The Naval Investigative Service (NIS) was ordered to investigate charges made at WSI by VVAW members representing themselves as veterans of the Navy or Marines. Their reports have not been located, and it is uncertain whether they were destroyed or are lost in the vast government archives system. Historian Guenter Lewy cited a summary report by NIS in his 1978 book America in Vietnam, noting that many participants refused to provide evidence to Navy investigators, and others backtracked on their stories â€" the same pattern found in the newly discovered Army CID documents. Lewy also reported that several veterans told the NIS in sworn statements corroborated by witnesses that they had not been in Detroit â€" i.e., the VVAW activists who used their names were imposters.
It is unfortunate that the military didn't simply release the results of the investigations as they were completed. America's Vietnam veterans might have been spared several decades of public distrust and contempt stimulated by the leftist "baby-killer" agitprop. Unfortunately, US military leaders during the Vietnam era failed to understand that home-front psychological warfare operations pose at least as great a threat to the military's ability to successfully complete its mission as enemy operations in the field.
The (not so) new winter soldiers
Among the VVAW retreads supporting the IVAW's new propaganda campaign is Joe Bangert, a former Marine mechanic who claimed at WSI that he had watched while his fellow Americans casually gunned down Vietnamese children and murdered and skinned a Vietnamese woman. Bangert, a fervent supporter of America's wartime enemies, met in 1971 with North Vietnamese and Vietcong delegations in Paris, where he proudly sang "We Will Liberate the South," and the "Ballad of Uncle Ho" for his hosts. He later moved to join his comrades in communist Vietnam, where he lived for several years.
Members of the military with actual knowledge of crimes committed by US troops in Iraq or Afghanistan have a legal and moral obligation to report them to military authorities. The activists who will claim in Washington that they saw or participated in such crimes presumably failed to do this. What are we to make of "witnesses" who ignore crimes while in the field, but later make allegations in a venue designed to smear the military and its mission? Add the near-certainty that the charges themselves will be vague, lacking the specific details and supporting evidence that real investigations require. Perhaps this time we should assume that the troops who defend us are innocent when they are accused of unsubstantiated "crimes" by a radical movement with a long history of deceit.
In light of the new CID documents, will John Kerry admit that the war crime allegations he presented to the Senate in 1971 were largely fictitious? When the Winter Soldier documentary is shown to college students, will liberal professors now point out that it has been thoroughly discredited? Will the Washington Post reconsider its credulous 2005 film review? Can we expect the new discovery to be reported accurately on Wikipedia's leftist-controlled Winter Soldier page? Will the IVAW radicals currently preparing their own attack on the US military be embarrassed to learn that they are emulating a fraud?
Not a chance. WSI was always about perceptions; never reality. America's detractors will peddle the VVAW's grisly myths for as long as people are willing to believe them.
Investigating the winter soldiers
In 2005, I visited the National Archives at College Park, Maryland with Vietnam veteran and researcher John Boyle. Sifting through the limited material available, we found summary data for the WSI allegations the Army had investigated. The Army's Criminal Investigative Division (CID) had opened cases for 43 WSI "witnesses" whose claims, if true, would qualify as crimes. An additional 25 Army WSI participants had criticized the military in general terms, without sufficient substance to warrant any investigation.
The 43 WSI CID cases were eventually resolved as follows: 25 WSI participants refused to cooperate, 13 provided information but failed to support the allegations, and five could not be located. No criminal charges were filed as a result of any of the investigations. The individual CID case files, which had been available to the public beginning in 1994, were withdrawn from public access around 2003, when the National Archives realized that the documents should have been embargoed until the personal information they contained could be removed, or "redacted," as required by the Privacy Act of 1974.
my dad ate a water buffalo christmas day when he was in vietnam.. of course that water buffalo was THE BEST water buffalo that farmer had; so they had to pay the farmer for it.
God forbid you're in the turret, all the ROE steps are ridiculous. I cant say them but doing my job we were right with NCIS and they are ALWAYS watching. And anyone that's killed they will be there.
OH, NICE, NICE TO KNOW, IN CASE I GO. I'M ABOUT READY TO GO TOO. THEY DONE PISSED ME OFF NOW. IT COST ABOUT 4.20 FOR A GALLON DIESEL IN SF CA USA AT THE CHEAP STATION, THEY STARTED THIS WAR BACK IN 1973 DURING THE YUM KIPPUR WAR WHEN THE ARABS PULLED A SURPRIZE ATTACK ON ISRAEL, AND THE ARAB OPEC MEMBERS CUT OFF OIL EXPORTS TO THE US, AN ACT OR WAR,( CAUSE WE'RE THIER ALLIES, ISRAEL, AND THEY PICKED UP ALOT OF ARMS MADE IN US, )AND HAS FCCED UP US ECONOMY EVER SINCE, I REMEBER IT, WAS AS SOON AS I GOT MY DRIVERS LICENCE, WHEN I WAS 17 YEARS OLD, THIS WAR IS NOTING NEW, HELL MOST OF YOU GUYS WERE NOT EVEN BORN WHEN IT STARTED. I CAN ASSURE YOU THE BAD GUYS DONT HAVE ANY NCIC OR WHATEVERI IT IS CALLED, NIS, MARINE CORPS I WAS IN BACK IN 74 A YEAR LATER, AFTER THE ARAB EMBARGO ON USA. AND NETHERLANDS, HASH CAFE'S HO HOUSES, LEGAL, OUR ALLIES FOR SURE. AND I LEARNED TOO FROM THE ENCYCLOPAEDIA THAT ONE OF THE GOALS OF OPEC AND ARAB OPEC IS LOOKING TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD, IT IS CALLED SOVERITY, YOU WORK FOR THEM UNDERSTAND?. GOOD NOW WITH A SEMI FULLY LOADED AND THEY BETTER BE AT A 4.20 A GALLON FOR DIESEL, YOUR LOOKING AT A THOUSAND DOLLARS TO FITE, I MEAN FILL UP. A COUPLE TANKS. 3 30 OR 6 30 THOUSAND POUNDS? WHATS A FULL LOAD THESE DAYS OR YOU USING A BELT FEDSHIT SAWS AND THE LIKE M60'S ETC. EVERY MARINE IS A RILFLEMAN. IM ACTUALLY A PRETTY DARN GOOD TELETYPE TECH ONE OF THE BEST IN ALL THE USA IF I DONT SAY SO MYSELF, THANKS TO THE SUCK I MEAN THE USMC AND THE US NAVY, THANKS AGAIN GENTLEME FOR DOING A AWSOME JOB OVER THERE, IF ANYONE OF YOU GETS HURT, IT IS TOO MANY, BE ON GUARD AND DONT TAKE ANY UNNECESSRY RISKS PLEASE. THE U.S MARINE ACCEPTED CASUALITY RATE IS NO 0 US MARINES WOUNDED OR KILLED, THAT MUST BE A BITCH TO FIND YOUR SELF BORN IN IRAQ OR IRAN OR WHATEVER IN THE FLOCKL IN HELL IS THE ANME OF THAT PLACE OFVER THERE IN THE DESERT, I KIND OF FEEL SORRY FOR THEM , UP UNTIL THE FIRST TIME ONE OF OUR BOYS GETS HURT BEING OVER THERE DUE TO THE ACTIONS OF >THEM<, THEN ITS ALL OVER, NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY, BE CAREFULLL. NEED TO LOOK OUT FOR THE BAD GUYS OVER HERE TOO IN THE US, THEY HAVE ALOT OF MONEY, THE ENEMY, YOU KNOW, THEY STOLE ALOT HIT THE BANKS MINTS, STOLE THE PAPERS, PLATES MINTS ETC, SO THEY WERE PRINTING IT FOR A WHILE TOO WHY WE HAVE FANCY NEW MONEY M16 A2 NICE WEAPON HUH? THE M16 A2 RIFLE IS AN AIR COOLED GAS OPERATED SHOULDER FIRED WEAPON CAPABLE OF FIRE IN THE SEMI AUTO AND FULLY AUTO OOPS MY BAD VIET NAM ERA VET STILL KNOW MY GENERAL ORDERS TOO 1 TO TAKE CHARGE OF THIS POST AND ALL....
BE CAREFULL GENTLEMEN AND LADIES, TOO, WHAT IN THE HELL ARE LADIES DOING ON THE FRONT, TIT SHOTS?. HOPE SO FOR YOU GUYS. ANYWAY, YEAH BE CAREFULL IT IS EASTER MORNING HERE IN SF CA USA. WAYNE FORMER PRIVATE HANDZUS WHO REQUESTED PERMISSION TO SPEAK TO THE DRILL INSTRUCTOR SIR ETC, PARRIS ISLAND AUG 1974 LOVE TOO. HOPE A LOT FOR YOU WHEN YOU RETURN STATESIDE , B'S AND HOS, OH WELL, MAYBE U'LL DO BETTER THEN ME. GONE
Holy sweet mother of god.
Wow yah glad we don't have to go through that process. I've heard of it and others tossed it away as rumors but i guess it exists in some units.
The six S's
Shoot to warn
Shoot to disable
Shoot to kill
Now that we have penflares that don't require an investigation when fired, we use the fuck out of them.
Wayne is the best charity sub ever.
Wayne out of fucking nowhere.