Recommend good tape drive for small Windows server

Discussion in 'OT Technology' started by mdaniel, May 7, 2006.

  1. mdaniel

    mdaniel S is for Shiksa

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    What's a good, reliable, tape drive for backing up a small server that doesn't cost more than the server? AIT vs. DLT? Data size is about 100GB but most of that doesn't change daily so differential backups between weekly full backups wouldn't be nearly that big, maybe 5-10GB.
     
  2. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    Don't buy a tape drive. Use a hard drive, and an external enclosure.
     
  3. mdaniel

    mdaniel S is for Shiksa

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    Yeah I know the tape vs. hard drive debate has been beaten to death here before. I do hard drive backups too but they're a little expensive for keeping multiple generations of backups around.
     
  4. DAN513

    DAN513 OT Supporter

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    DLT 4 (I think) is the 80/160gb tapes, so as long as it's not all video or images, you should easily be able to get all the stuff you need on one tape.
    That's what I use at work, but most of the stuff on the network is video or images, we have to use 2 tapes.
     
  5. TheRider

    TheRider Geeky OT Supporter

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    Ultrium II FTW....

    Peyomp, do you really not understand why people use tape?
     
  6. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    It just seems to me like a hell of alot of transaction data can fit on a $325, 500 gigabyte external hard drive for something like this. Thats equivalent to 1TB of space using a tape compression system. Whats the tape drive itself cost to handle his needs, and how many 1TB compressed hard drives can you get for that money? I just suggest that people really do that math before they buy tape, thats all. If you want to get storage specialists' opinions on "tape is dead" that are much more credible than mine, google it. Many, many hits. But I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, I was just suggesting nicely to do the math before buying tape. He said he has, and I left it at that.

    I just priced an Ultrium I and it was $2,000. How much is an Ultrium II? I couldn't find any on froogle.. To compare... you can get more than 3TB (6TB if you use the 2:1 compression that tapes use) worth of external hard drive space for less than $2,000. And you can buy as you go. I get why it makes sense for a data center that runs hundreds of tapes. But for most people the money don't add up.

    Sorry for the dead horse.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2006
  7. 5Gen_Prelude

    5Gen_Prelude There might not be an "I" in the word "Team", but

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    $325/500 = 65 cents a gig

    $50/200 = 25 cents a gig

    So... how long before tape pays for itself?

    2000 + x * .25 = x * .65
    x * .65 - x * .25 = 2000
    x(.65-.25) = 2000
    x = 2000 / .4
    x = 5000

    So... 10 hard drives and then yer in the hole. Now lets see, typically you set up backups for daily, weekly, monthy - keeping the monthly backup. 5 tapes for the week, 5 for the weekly back ups, and one per month. Wow. Looks like you're in the hole before the month is up - :rofl:
     
  8. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    If you actually have 10TB of data to backup in a month with zero tape rotation, then a tape drive makes sense, assuming you have already replicated the data across systems. Does that fit for the poster?

    And actually, you compared the compressed rate for an ultrium 1 tape to the uncompressed rate for a hard drive, right? http://www.imation.com/products/ultrium/ultrium1_tape_cartridges.html looks like compressed is 200MB, which would make the 500GB drive 1TB.
     
  9. 5Gen_Prelude

    5Gen_Prelude There might not be an "I" in the word "Team", but

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    Sigh - look, the real world doesn't use differentials if you can get away with it. Why? Because just ONE screwup whether it be a tape or HD, and you're dead. Especially when you think of SQL databases - even if you try to rebuild using the transactional logs, it's a bitch. So most people do normal backups. And I costed it out for 200 gigs uncompressed per tape.

    There's no way I would want to be shipping a $350 asset around on a daily basis.
     
  10. TheRider

    TheRider Geeky OT Supporter

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    Ultrium II Tapes are 200/400GB. The drives run as little as $1222 for a major branded drive ie HP. See: http://www.pricegrabber.com/p__HP_H...8_INT_TAPE_DRIVE,__7873038/search=ultrium+448

    Tapes run abour $30, you crunch the numbers...
     
  11. Peyomp

    Peyomp New Member

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    He's got 100 gigs of data total, and little of it changes per week. Do you really think a tape drive is cost effective in this situation? Whats more, do you not rotate tapes? Do you really keep full backups forever? Will he?

    As to problems with transactional log integrity, you can verify their integrity as you go if you aren't just dumping them to tape, so their integrity is less of an issue then.
     
  12. 5Gen_Prelude

    5Gen_Prelude There might not be an "I" in the word "Team", but

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    I never said I don't rotate tapes out, in fact I said you have 5 per week, 5 weekly's per month and month end. So 11 tapes to start out with with an additional 1 every month.

    You must live in a perfect world where no data gets lost once you've archived it.

    And to answer your question - yes - I don't believe in shipping 300 dollar items off-site everyday.
     
  13. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    Storing multiple full backups is a waste of space anyway. All you need is the oldest backup + all the files you added since then. Hell, if free MSBackup can do that, there's no reason to store full backups anymore.
     
  14. EvilSS

    EvilSS New Member

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    Differential backups just tend to fail too often when trying to restore. Most big companies I've been in do full backups everyday.
     
  15. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    This post makes me think you have little/no real-world experience with backups in a business environment... It just doesn't work like that.

    Even for my clients that want incremental hd-based backups I have two drives in a removable tray that they rotate... That way there's still a 2nd drive.
     
  16. Mikey D

    Mikey D New Member

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    You've never used Tivoli Storage Manager :o

    The only time we do fulls is in the case of Database/Messaging and even then it's like a once or twice a week full with archive logs backups after. Doing fulls daily really is a sign of bad backup/archive policy.
     
  17. Mikey D

    Mikey D New Member

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    If you can afford it LTO1 @10MB/s (100/200GB) or LTO2 @30MB/s (200/400GB) would be nice. If someone is there to swap tapes could could do a DLT4 @5MB/s (35/70GB).

    Can't speak to the AIT drives don't have any experience with them.

    Disclaimer: Speeds are uncompressed speeds
     
  18. EvilSS

    EvilSS New Member

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    I know of two places using it with huge tape library silos and both do full backups daily. The problems creep in when you have to rebuild and have to go though tape after tape to rebuild the differential changes since the last full backup. It works OK if you have a big automated silo that can shuffle the tapes, but it's still a pain. Most of my customers have dedicated networks for backups and time costs more than tape.

    For small companies that hand swap tapes it just sucks and is not always successful.
     
  19. Mikey D

    Mikey D New Member

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    Collocation in TSM :o

    For what he's looking at doing an LTO drive with a Weekly full then differential would work out well.

    Your customers must have some high media costs due to all their daily fulls. Even with a private backup network that's still a lot of data daily.

    I have a few large silo's round here (STK 9310's & SL8500's). I couldn't imagine how many LSM's we'd need if we had the daily full strategy, as is we have three LSM's for just one of our centralized backup systems.

    We do a dedicated backup network here as well for most of our solutions. I work for the number two IT services provider to give you a hint, at least I think we're still two. :mamoru:
     
  20. EvilSS

    EvilSS New Member

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    If he can fit it all on one tape then a full backup is just as good, since the media cost would be the same either way. Then if he had to do a restore on friday he wouldn't have to go through a week's worth of differentials and hope it all got put back together correctly.

    As for those customers, both of them (and most of my big customers) have StorageTek ACS silos, so capacity is not really an issue for them.
     
  21. Mikey D

    Mikey D New Member

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    Media cost would be more with your method, unless I understood it wrong.

    100GB per full, assuming 2:1 compression seven days a week that's 700Gb in about four tapes rounded up.

    100GB per full assuming 2:1 compression with a weekly full and differentials each day between assuming 10GB max change is two tapes assuming that fulls are stored on one tape and differentials on another as most software seperates full tapes and differential tapes.

    Granted it's only two tapes probably at most $60-100 difference but there is a cost savings. If any tapes are copied for offsite dr requirements too those savings would be increased with out having all the information that might not be needed in his situation.

    I'm not sure if I understand your method completely but it sounds like maybe you mean just do a full each day and do not retain any historical data from a week ago, just keep using the same tape for each nightly full? I'd be hesitant to do that route with what could happen with server patching and upgrades.
     
  22. EvilSS

    EvilSS New Member

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    No no no. Do a full backup each day, saving historical backups for x days (7, 14, whatever). Definitely keep historical backups (which is my beef with the external HD method SOMEONE else on here keeps pushing). A SDLT 220 will hold 110GB native/220 compressed per tape and the drives are under $2000 (about $1800 street). Tapes are 30-50 each.
     
  23. mdaniel

    mdaniel S is for Shiksa

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    Yeah that's my reason for looking into tape. Sometimes people don't realize their data is fux0red for a while so keeping older (weekly, monthly) backups around can really save your ass. External hard drives stop being cost effective when you need a dozen of them.

    Does anyone still use DAT? It looks like its topped out at 72GB compressed. Yeah the tapes are cheap but that's not that much storage unless you have an autoloader. Even then, I try to avoid media spanning whenever possible since Murphy's law will bite you on the ass.
     
  24. EvilSS

    EvilSS New Member

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    I've never liked DAT. The drives don't seem to last as long as DLT's and others.
     
  25. mdaniel

    mdaniel S is for Shiksa

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    I have some experience with older DATs and sort of got the same impression. They just seemed way too pissy and error proned.
     

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