GUN Question from the tactical sticky up top

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by RyeLou, Jul 9, 2007.

  1. RyeLou

    RyeLou OT Supporter

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    In reguards to #4:

    4. Shot placement > Caliber. You can debate this all you want, but guess what caliber holds the record for most deaths in this country every year.. 9mm? Nope. .40? Nope. the big bad .45? Nope. It's the .22LR.

    I agree that shot placement is most important. However, does anyone actually carry something like a .22? What about a .38 even? For a lot of people the larger calibers seem to be a false sense of security, and I'm trying to prove this point to my girlfriend. She wants to get a gun and I'd like her to get a .38 I think.
     
  2. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

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    let her get what she wants to get. but make sure its a big enough caliber that it will have some stopping power. i'd say anything above .32 ACP :dunno:
     
  3. PanzerAce

    PanzerAce Active Member

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    something about great minds....



    While shot placement is important, it should be with something powerful enough to actually matter. In this case, i am pretty sure that the meaning is: keeping it center of mass with 9mm is better than barely nicking them with a .45.
     
  4. RonJeremey

    RonJeremey OT Supporter

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    .38ACP... kel tec perhaps?
     
  5. JaimeZX

    JaimeZX Formerly of :Sep 2001: fame - Also: Sprout Crew OT Supporter

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    Walther PPK in .380?
     
  6. RyeLou

    RyeLou OT Supporter

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    We're going to head to the range to rent some guns for her once she's back from vacation. She prefers the style of revolves, but likes her brothers XD too so we'll see.

    I'll look into the .38ACP
     
  7. Keesh

    Keesh New Member

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    .22LR kills the most people because .22LR is used more often than other calibers. Let get get what ever caliber she feels comfortable shooting. .38 would probably be a good choice but she has to be comfortable with the gun.
     
  8. RonJeremey

    RonJeremey OT Supporter

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    .380, .38, .32... ETC... 9mm... any of the popular calibers that have good defensive rounds available.
     
  9. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    It is widely believed that anything 9mm will not have the oomph to both expand and penetrate deeply enough in tissue to reach the important parts and a fmj round is a better choice in smaller calibers. .38spl can still make quite a nice hole with wadcutters and be easy to shoot and the bottom of the line that some ballistics experts recomment people use for defense. I can see the case being made for a small .380 with fmj rounds though too as being better than nothing and very concealable. If you go below 9mm though you need to remember that hollow points might no longer be a good idea. Some people can't get over that.

    On a side note, don't pick a gun out for your g/f. Most women seem to have j-frame revolvers and thats what men push them to for some reason even though they're pretty hard guns to shoot well and have low capacity. Try her out on something like a sig p239 and a small kahr too.
     
  10. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    You need to find this month's issue of SWAT magazine. It has a great article about finding a carry pistol for a woman. It covers the caliber issue, the size issue, everything.
     
  11. smartypants

    smartypants New Member

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    1. Where does this data regarding .22 come from?
    2. Does it take into account the relative low cost of .22 weapons & ammo?
     
  12. amill94

    amill94 OT Supporter

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    :werd:

    My g/f wanted to get a gun after shooting some of mine. We went to a large gun store and I told her to look into the subcompact glocks and xd's for starters since they were small and I knew their track record. We went and she thought they were big and the guy talked her into a S&W .38spl that was very small. She liked it b/c it was lighter...but I told her it was d/a and she'll hate it...not to mention the recoil would be worse than the 9mm I recommened...plus ammo costs. She didn't listen and went with the J-frame.

    Took it to the range later after I picked up my new usp-c .45 and she fired 4 shots out of the j-frame and didn't want to shoot it anymore. She actually like the usp better than the j-frame.

    Anyway, the store exchanged it and she went with the XD sub-compact 9mm. She is happy now.
     
  13. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

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    Can you post links to references that demonstrate that please? I'm not saying it's wrong, but I won't believe that without some sort of comparative evidence.

    (FWIW I would rather produce a 4" deep x 2" wide hole than a 8" deep x .75" wide one... so yeah, I'm not buying that there's ANYTHING good about a FMJ)
     
  14. Dsking85

    Dsking85 New Member

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    i don't think so, Tim
    [​IMG]
     
  15. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

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    In something like a .25 I might buy it but in a .380 (my main concern) I still won't trust my life to a FMJ when I need it.

    I didn't see anywhere in there the range they were firing at the gelatin. I think everyone is pretty much aware that the .25 is nearly a contact-only gun. I wouldn't dream of incapacitating someone at more than 15 ft with the Kel-Tec but in the event that I need it I don't want to merely put a hole into someone, I aim to disrupt as much tissue as possible, even if within 6" of the surface.
     
  16. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

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    Yes, but pure penetration is very likely to result in niether of those. Medium penetration with a larger area of damage is more likely to do the job, especially with a small caliber weapon that is usually considered vaguely accurate at best and with a small sight radius.
     
  17. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    This is the best read you'll find for a introduction primer to terminal ballistics and handguns http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm The medical professionals that are considered experts in the field say the 4" deep but wider hole is the less desireable wound because it doesn't go deep enough into the body to reach the parts that can be damaged to force the body to stop. There have been many instances where insufficient penetration has led to a failure to stop and its why 12" of penetration is considered the standard minimum.

    Then post information, not pictures. I have yet to find a .380 jhp that is a reliable expander and will penetrate 12+"
     
  18. Dsking85

    Dsking85 New Member

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    well, in your post you said "anything 9mm"
     
  19. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    My bad :big grin: Add below
     
  20. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

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    I have read that before and I refreshed on it just in case. It says the same thing it did last time. It's a great document but a lot is said as gospel that is somewhat opinionated and I know you feel that no one has an understanding of ballistics quite like you but there are a range of opinions on the matter, not ALL of which are BS (although most are indeed)

    Anyway, they make a lot out of this magical 12" value. (I was using the 4" vs 8" one was a round-number example, not intended to be taken to scale) I agree that a very small penetration is bad but they referenced 12" as a limit while specifically stating the possible necessity of shooting through an arm and on into the body from the side. It's very unlikely that I will be shooting someone unless they are facing me with intent to do some substantial harm. I'm not saying impossible, just less likely. If I were a cop this may be different... Anyway, 12" is a nice round number but by no means is there a distinct difference in a projectile that penetrates 12.2" and one that penetrates 11.9" Both of them will either benefit from expansion or they will not.

    I only carry a .380 because I can carry it when I wouldn't normally carry the .40 or .45 anyway so it's either .380 or nothing. Personally I will choose .380 every time in that option.

    I'll agree the .380 is a weak round, in fact it's that absolute bottom limit that I would trust my life to, but I disagree that it is more effective with FMJ. In the event that the shot is precisely placed in the direction of a particular artery there is a good chance that the FMJ will reach it where a hollowpoint will not, although you recall in that literature that he stated the hollows will only sometimes expand in the first place. Regardless, I would much rather have a little less depth and do a little more damage to the organs I do hit, even if only in 7-8".

    Oh, and Forty, in that link they show no data from a .380 at all so I can't say that I do or do not agree with their opinion of what is "overexpanded or underpenetrated"

    BTW, does anyone recall the link to a long image thread demonstrating the temporary and permanent cavities with a variety of different ammo? I believe it was a gov't study of some sort.

    I'm not disputing that penetration is the most significant goal. The issue is at what point does it become beneficial to trade penetration for expansion? I don't necessarily agree with the 12" min rule but that doesn't mean I doubt the knowledge or wisdom of those who stated it in the first place.
     
  21. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    Its a condensed version of many academic quality documents which I believe are cited. I don't claim to be a ballistics expert, but I have tried to put in a good amount of time reading the works of those that are. Take it however you want but people like fackler, roberts, macpherson, wolberg, and the like all agree. Their work sets the standard for what the police and government agencies use. Maybe they're wrong, its the smart bet to me though that they're on to something. Some people try to treat their cancer with herbal remedies.

    Thats kind of the point. If I'm standing in front of you with a weapon pointed at you, you might well have to shoot through my arms on the way to my chest. I don't expect an attacker to present their chest square to me and unobstructed.

    The cutoff has to be somewhere. People with far more hours and resources available for researching it than me have decided that 12" seems to be a good baseline. You'll have to decide if you think you're more knowledgable than them or not.

    No doubt, a gun is better than no gun.

    What if 7-8" falls short of the organ? There is no magic involved, you have to break the systems that keeps the body running. If you can't hit deeply enough to reach those systems, the expansion is irrelevant. This has been a constant problem with LE. It happened in the miami shootout, it happened to the Illinois state police in a shootout with a biker in joliet who took 13 rounds of silvertips COM with insufficient penetration.

    Why should the "at least 12 inches of penetration before worrying about expansion" rule apply for LE and not for us?

    Is this the image you were wanting?
    [​IMG]
    It illustrates that all service caliber handguns do similar amounts of damage to the body.
     
  22. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

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    I believe that what he says is his opinion is indeed his opinion and I believe that he has a good foundation for it. All I'm saying is he shows a lot about various different rounds and then mentions the .380 as part of that group without showing any evidence on which that comment was based. Admittedly the .380 is by no means a 9mm in terms of ballistics but it is in no way a .25 or a .32 in terms of mass and velocity.

    And I understand about the temporaru cavity, that's not what I'm talking about.
     
  23. no7fish

    no7fish New Member

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    You just seem very determined that people who disagree with your understanding of ballistics are incorrect and need to be educated is all. I've tried to learn a lot on the subject as well and I have my own interpretation of some of the data as well as agreeing with various people who know what they're talking about.

    I'm not talking about alternate realities or something and I'm not saying they're wrong either, I just interpret and apply the data a little different than you is all and you seem to want to take that as me being some kind of heretic.

    The scenario you mentioned is not what they said in the literature and not what I'm talking about. They said if you shot at someone standing with their side facing you. If someone is not facing me then they are most likely not being agressive in my direction. As a LEO you may be required to shoot someone acting towards another person. Of course if an LEO then you can quite easily carry a large caliber sidearm so none of this is an issue.

    Anyway, my point is that if someone is facing me then I don't need to penetrate through their body sideways, only front to back, or at some angle probably less than 45 degrees through their torso, hence a different scenario. Also, if I need to use my .380 then it's very close range. It's by no means an all purpose weapon and can only be used in the manner it will be effective. I'm not taking shots at an agressor from 30yds with it. If I'm in that position and need to then I should have brought the HK or stayed the hell out of that neighborhood!

    That's just it, there isn't truly a cutoff. It's not quite so black and white. There is a grey area in there somewhere between a large/fast projectile and a small/light one. The first quite easily sacrificing penetration for expansion and the second needing every bit of penetration it can get.

    It is simlpy my opinion that the .380 is right in the middle of that grey area where the penetration is just barely sufficient to allow for some expansion and still be quite effective. True it will not penetrate through someone sideways but it will go from the front to the back of someone if shot from the front. If at an angle it will most likely go at least halfway through, hence hitting SOMETHING important. If it has to go all the way through to hit the arteries next to the spine as mentioned in the literature then it obviously missed everything important and will probably miss that artery as well.

    What organs are more than 7-8" deep in a body that doesn't have something important between it and the entry of the projectile? I'm not saying that you are GOING to kill someone within 7-8" but you can't say you aren't, and you can't say that you def will if you have 12". As was pointed out, you can't plan for everything and every situation is different. It's the probability that is at stake here. We are debating the probability that a given projectile will damage something important more often than the next. It is simply my view that I have a better chance of that with a .380 CorBon +P hollowpoint than with a .380 FMJ of any type, at least in the nature that I expect the weapon might ever be called to use.

    Also, you can't really compare that example without details of clothing, angle of entry, depth of insufficient penetration and what condition the guy was in.


    As I said before, their position in a conflict is different than a defensive shooter who is mostly concerned with immediate attackers. Also, they carry weapons that had better be well capable of that penetration and no excuse not to. I doubt a LEO would ever consider carrying a .380 as a duty weapon. I'm not talking duty weapons here, I'm talking last-chance style weapons, BUG's, whatever.

    The whole question here is whether a FMJ is better than a hollow point in a certain situation, for me specifically a .380, and the only evidence that says it is seems to be a quote from a reasonably respected person on a forum with no quantitative evidence to back that up. There is lots of data here but none of it is strictly applicable or related to the .380. I choose to apply the data presented slightly different than you guys is all. I probably bought a different car than you guys too ;)

    And no, this isn't it, although this one is pretty good. I was referring to a pretty in depth report posted here a good while ago, I think it was from a military study on ballistic effectiveness and had a number of images displaying the various cavities and depths for different rounds.
     
  24. Keesh

    Keesh New Member

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  25. JaimeZX

    JaimeZX Formerly of :Sep 2001: fame - Also: Sprout Crew OT Supporter

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    That's a good briefing. Could've done without the asscrack shot though. :rofl:
     

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