A&P question for photographer's as far as rights of the photos

Discussion in 'Lifestyle' started by whomadewho, Apr 9, 2008.

  1. whomadewho

    whomadewho Ohhh FCN Ohhhhh FCN!

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    EDIT: *photographers

    friend of mine developed underwear. did a shoot at a studio with a few models. now, I asked her to tell the photographer to send me the original hi-res before he edits them because i want to make different ads. he is refusing to do that, saying that he has a lot of pride in his work and only wants to send me the shots that he edited. he adds a lot of style to the pictures which make them useless to me. she paid him $500 for the shots, which in her words was a total "hook up".

    Now, most importantly, he signed a release. All the damn pictures belong to my friend or am I wrong here? I am not a dick and I don't want to burn bridges so I do not want to go down the "it's the contract, hand them over route". My friend says the photographer is a really nice guy. Could this just be a misunderstanding? You guys are photographers, what woud be a nice way of me convincing you to send me pre-edited hi-res pictures?
     
  2. mojito

    mojito New Member

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    depends on what the contract says. it better have ben very specific.

    do you have a copy of it? I would personally never sign something like that. hotographers are artists, you're paying for finished work. Would you buy a ceramic bowl that hasn't been i the oven and glazed?
     
  3. Shiva Chaos

    Shiva Chaos i see boobies!

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    check the release/contract.
     
  4. Fucker

    Fucker out of the fast lane, bitches

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    your post is confusing. is it you or your friend that has a contract with the photographer? if so, what does the contract stipulate? unless the contract specifies the quantity, terms and/or conditions, the photographer owns the copyright. he may have licensed usage to your friend for what ever purpose is stipulated, but he doesn't have to give unedited images to anyone unless that's specifically what the contract says he'll provide.

    if your friend has a contract with the photographer and you don't, you have no standing and can demand nothing.
     
  5. mojito

    mojito New Member

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    :werd:
     
  6. JordanClarkson

    JordanClarkson OT Supporter

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    get your own camera and reshoot.
     
  7. Spurious

    Spurious New Member

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    I don't think he's going to be putting sparkle on them. He's probably just going to do normal post processing which should just look like original but better.
     
  8. White Stormy

    White Stormy Take that, subspace!

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    if you buy a house wouldn't you also get a blueprint?
     
  9. mojito

    mojito New Member

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    nope and even if you did, you wouldn't be able to use it for commercial purposes as that its a copyrighted work it in of it self, which is why you can't photograph certain buildings for commercial purposes


    if ou wnt my set diagrams and notes (equivalent to a blueprint) go for it :rofl:

    walter iioos jr published a book of his, actually pretty fascinating for the low price of 39.99 and again, you couldn't use those for commercial purposes either
     
  10. Spurious

    Spurious New Member

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    If you hired an architect you might, but you wouldn't get the architects drafts.
     
  11. whomadewho

    whomadewho Ohhh FCN Ohhhhh FCN!

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    my friend and the photographer is the one with the contract. I will be working for my friend to make an advertisement for her business using those images. I can't use the heavily stylized images he gives me. Don't get me wrong, she is very satisfied with his work but needs to use it for multiple things, not just a glamour presentation. this is the contract and again, I do not want to be a dick about it and point at the contract but rather reason with him. I just don't know what point I should make that's why I'm asking you guys:

    This agreement entered into on the 20th of March 2008 between blah (Company) and blah bla of blah Images (Photographer).
    The Company and the Photographer agree to the following:

    1. Title and Copyright Assignment
    (a) Photographer grants Company, an irrevocable license to use photograph(s) now or at any time in the future, throughout the world in any manner it so chooses and in any medium now known or later developed under the brand of Company. This includes, the right to modify the photograph(s) as necessary. For modification, Company agrees to always approach Photographer first to do the job. In the instance Photographer cannot do the job, it is agreed that Company has the right to contract a third party. Use includes, without limitation, use on Company labels, website, magazine advertisements, corporate brochures and any other promotional material it wishes.
    (b) The Company agrees to credit the Photographer’s work whether in the form of Photographer’s name or a link back to the Photographer’s website.

    2. Photographer's Warranty
    The Photographer warrants that he or she is the sole owner of the Work and has full power and authority to make this agreement; that the Work does not infringe any copyright, violate any property rights, or contain any scandalous, libelous, or unlawful matter. The Photographer will defend, indemnify, and hold harmless the Company and/or its licensees against all claims and suits that the Company and/or its licensees may sustain by reason of any scandalous, libelous, or unlawful matter contained or alleged to be contained in the Work or any infringement or violation by the Work of any copyright or property right.

    3. Consideration
    In consideration for delivery of the Work in accordance with the provisions of this Agreement, Company shall pay Photographer $250.00 along with first dibs for the Photographer for future projects with the company.

    4. Amendments
    The written provisions contained in this agreement constitute the sole and entire agreement made between the Photographer and the Company concerning this Work, and any amendments to this agreement shall not be valid unless made in writing and signed by both parties.

    5. Construction, Binding Effect, and Assignment
    This agreement shall be construed and interpreted according to the laws of the State of California and shall be binding upon the parties hereto, their heirs, successors, assigns, and personal representatives; and references to the Photographer and to the Company shall include their heirs, successors, assigns, and personal representatives.
    IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have duly executed this agreement as of the date first written above.
    blah blah
    Address: Address:

    X____________________________ X______________________
    blah blah blah blah
     
  12. mojito

    mojito New Member

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    do you work at said company or a different one?
     
  13. whomadewho

    whomadewho Ohhh FCN Ohhhhh FCN!

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    said company
     
  14. A/E

    A/E New Member

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    Photographer grants Company, an irrevocable license to use photograph(s) now or at any time in the future, throughout the world in any manner it so chooses and in any medium now known or later developed under the brand of Company. This includes, the right to modify the photograph(s) as necessary. For modification, Company agrees to always approach Photographer first to do the job. In the instance Photographer cannot do the job, it is agreed that Company has the right to contract a third party.

    +

    The Photographer warrants that he or she is the sole owner of the Work and has full power and authority to make this agreement; that the Work does not infringe any copyright, violate any property rights, or contain any scandalous, libelous, or unlawful matter.

    end result... you're fuc-ked

    Photog owns the pictures, you must contract with him (and pay again) to get less edited (less modified) versions of the pictures. You are contractually obligated to go thru him again. IF he is unwilling to do so, you may take the copies you now hold and ask someone to UNmodify them (impossible).


    I doubt this has come up in a court case, yet, but...
    until it is 'developed' and converted from .raw to some other format... it should be considered (& can be argued to be) the equivalent of a film negative. IE not a photograph... A legal technicality may also be that it isn't technically a photograph until it is transfered to paper... prior to that, it is a digital image.
    What you received AFTER processing is the photograph.


    Anyway that is my interpretation based on the contract above and understanding of what the legal meaning of the word "is" is. :)
     
  15. whomadewho

    whomadewho Ohhh FCN Ohhhhh FCN!

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    thanks A/E. looks like I'll be building a little studio at home which I've been wanting to do for quite a while. Get new pictures and make them look the way I want it which will be very :kdubb: - ish

    I'll be back in AP asking advice about editing those said photos :)
     
  16. JordanClarkson

    JordanClarkson OT Supporter

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    Photog owns the pictures, you must contract with him (and pay again) to get less edited (less modified) versions of the pictures. You are contractually obligated to go thru him again. IF he is unwilling to do so, you may take the copies you now hold and ask someone to UNmodify them (impossible).

    lol at her agreeing to that
     
  17. Fucker

    Fucker out of the fast lane, bitches

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    that contract is very poorly written, however as i said before, there is nothing you can do. the photographer as basically given your clients company unlimited usage for unlimited time (aka "a total buy-out") but there are no stipulations for you or her approving the shots. your client has a contractual agreement with the photographer. your client is supplying you with the images, you have little choice but to use them. it's up to your client to get the photographer to provide you with what you need.

    i'm not entirely certain that all the provisions in the contract are enforceable, "first dibs" for example is not in the legal canons of CA or any other state for that matter. however, if he delivered images (work) and if she signed that contract and paid him, then she agreed to the terms.

    forgive me, but it sounds like everyone evolved is new and has no idea what they're doing.

    here's how it generally works; the client should have hired a design firm (or designer) to design the packaging/identity, then the designer/art director (with the clients input) finds a photographer. the AD works with the photographer, but is responsible for approving the shots and making sure the images work with with his/her firms design. the client signs off, everyone is happy. if you and the client would have been on set working with photographer there wouldn't be a problem.

    do it right, or do it again.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2008
  18. whomadewho

    whomadewho Ohhh FCN Ohhhhh FCN!

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    :cool:

    yeah, the client def. doesn't have a clue what she's doing but it was a good learning experience. The funniest part of it all is that SHE made HIM (the photographer) sign the contract :rofl:

    I am setting up another shoot and will be on set with her + I will have my sketches ready of what I want her ads to look like. I'll pretty much have full control of the shoot. That will be a great learning experience for me. Thanks for your help
     
  19. vwpilot

    vwpilot New Member

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    Ok, here is a question. Have you actually talked directly to the photographer about this?

    There could be something getting entirely lost in the translation between you and the photographer through your client.

    I would simply tell him what you are looking to do and say that you cant use heavily modified photos. I would think that he would be more than willing to give you fairly unmodified versions if he knows what you are doing with them and talk to him about it professionally.

    As a photographer, I NEVER turn over unedited images unless its a very specific deal. However, the editing is generally normal basic stuff such as color and exposure correction, maybe some slight cropping and some sharpening. These are basic things that do not make them unusable for others to use for ads or whatever they need.

    If you tell him you basically just need the normal photo and that minor editing for similar things as the above is ok, I'm sure he'd be willing to get you the photos. How modified are the ones he is giving the client that you cannot use them?

    Anyway, most photographers, if they are professionals and have experience working with companies and ad agencies should be more than willing and used to giving you what you need if you just explain it to him clearly and ask nicely for them. Show him that you're not going to butcher his work so he can keep his pride in it.

    This just sounds like its gotten a lot more blown out of proportion than it needed to be or this photographer is the most unreasonable photographer I have heard of.
     
  20. CrazyFoool

    CrazyFoool OT Supporter

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    a developer would never finish work that someoen else has designed and have a blueprint of...they would get sued. thats if they dont have expressed rights to do so which they dont unless they ask.
     
  21. CrazyFoool

    CrazyFoool OT Supporter

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    are you using the same photographer? :rofl:

    i'm in sj as well.
     
  22. whomadewho

    whomadewho Ohhh FCN Ohhhhh FCN!

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    hehe no. since this is my shoot I will be bankrolling it so I'm having a friend expand his portfolio :) you have a website? I can refer you to the owner of that company for future shoots. They're in the east bay
     
  23. whomadewho

    whomadewho Ohhh FCN Ohhhhh FCN!

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    That is basically the same point I'm at right now. I asked my client for the photog contact info so I'm gonna write him an email. I also decided to write down what I want the pictures to look like so he can edit it and have his input. I def. do not want to mess with somebody else's work. This whole thing has been approached with too little planning and just from the wrong angles. Thanks or your input :cool: It's refreshing how OT subforums are opposed to the main forum haha
     

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