GUN OK, Ray, time to toss your tubes...

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Thunderbear, Feb 15, 2009.

  1. Thunderbear

    Thunderbear Yggdrasil's Forester.

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    It's on like neckbones and rice:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    S12 drop free magwell. Come join the Communist shotgun owners ranks, you know you want to... :big grin:

    Surefire 12 rd mags
    Millenium Custom magwell
    Royal Arms recoil reducer/choke tubes
    Docter Optics sight
    Millenium Custom mount
    and an MD arms MD20 drum, because, you just hafta.

    You'd be lethal.

    Oh, and Centerfire Systems is doing free shipping on $549.00 S12s, last I heard. :big grin:

    http://www.centerfiresystems.com/SA...n=Saiga 12GA Shotgun In Stock - FREE SHIPPING
     
  2. PanzerAce

    PanzerAce Active Member

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    He can't :mamoru:
     
  3. LancerV

    LancerV Something Happened OT Supporter

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    I think that might make a louder racking noise than a pump making it a better a weapon for home defense
     
  4. Admitted

    Admitted I shouldn't be on OT right now.

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    Royal Arms recoil reducer/choke tubes

    The chokes are still a custom internal job
     
  5. THT

    THT The easy way is always mined

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    How much for that setup?
     
  6. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

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    Very interesting. I do like the drop free mags. There has been a lot of debate about the mag fed shotguns vrs the tube fed shotguns. The mag fed shotguns will have a definate advantage in some circumstances but like I said there are still several reasons to shoot a tube feed.

    The big wild card is the layout of the stages. if the stages have a mix of slugs, buckshot, and birdshot the advantage will go to the tube fed shotgun. The reason is you can single load or partial load a tube feed.

    For example. Say a stage calls for you to engage 2 bird shot targets then 2 slug targets at 50 yards, then move forward and engage 2 bird then 2 slugs. The you finish the stage with 16 more bird shots.

    So with a tube shotgun I'm loading bird in the chamber followed by bird slug slug, bird bird bird bird bird bird bird.

    In a mag fed shotgun I'm loading bird in the chamber, followed by bird slug slug bird bird slug slug bird bird bird.

    Then lets say I miss one of the first slug shots with a tube fed shotgun I load one slug into the tube, burn the bird shot in the chamber and re-engage the slug. As I move forward I load a 4 shell stick loaded bird slug slug bird. This way as I make the next position I have a bird in the chamber followed by 2 slugs then birds

    With a magfed shotgun I either eat the miss (15 second penalty) or a load another mag loaded with slugs and re-engage. Now here is the question. Do you drop the first mag on the ground and forget about it. If you have any additional misses your screwed. If you pocket it your going to burn 2-3 seconds. As you leave the first position you have to make another mag change again. So what this means is that miss cost you 2 mag changes. That is really expensive.

    With a tube fed shotgun everytime I move and I'm not shooting load at least 4 shells with a stick. With a mag fed shotgun I am stuck shooting 8 or 10 before I make a mag change. So in this instance if the stage is heavy shooting whole moving the magfed has the advantage. If the stage has designated positions to engage targets such as shooting areas and ports the tubefed will have the advantage. It seems odd but chances are the tube fed will have more shells in the gun as your always using dead time to top it off. The magfed your going into positions 1/2 loaded often times. Again not a problem if you don't miss. Every miss is a potential extra mag change

    What this means is the magfed shotgun will have the advantage if you don't or rarely miss. If you miss at all your making an extra mag change and your losing your advantage. Figure you have a finite amount of belt space to carry shotgun mags. I would think you would have to carry 4 just in case of a dropped mag or extra mag change. Remember you might also have to share space on the belt with pistol or rifle gear!

    In the US we run a lot of mixed ammo shotgun stages where the advantages of the magfed shotguns are less. In Europe they do not run mixed shell shogun stages. The stage is either all slugs, all bird or all buck. In this instance the mag fed shotguns have a definate advantage.

    The last hurdle is somebody has to win with a magfed shotgun. As it stands right now from what I hear the tube fed shotguns still dominate. This may change soon as the rumor is that Taran is moving to a mag fed shotgun and shooting open class.

    Lastly even though this is Ca there are ways to get a magfed shotgun. Taran and I would use the dual residency loophole where we could have a unregistered AW in state for 6 weeks at a time for competition usage. I think Taran has a vegas residency and I have a montana residency (I have an montana address, DL, and am registered to vote there).

    While I can definately see many circumstaces where a magfed shotgun would be an advantage I don't see enough of them yet. To be honest it is not the equipment that is holding me back and a magfed shotgun is not going to move me up in the standings. I do well on the shotgun stages. The thing that would move me up more places is streghtening my long range rifle shooting. Although I'm not bad some of the other guys are world class. So I need to work on my wind calls and rifle positions like I'm always preaching.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2009
  7. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

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    I watched the video again. The drop free is good but you still have to hit it with your support hand. Would be better if you could hit it with your strong hand like a AR-15. That way you could be going for a fresh mag at the same time. While this is faster then a push and pivot it is not the most ideal drop free configuration.
     
  8. Thunderbear

    Thunderbear Yggdrasil's Forester.

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    You can. I don't know why he's not using the trigger finger, unless he has midget fingers. There's an ambi mag release lever just ahead of the trigger guard.

    With the amount of loads and reloads you do, it sounds like a mix of 5 and 8 rounders would work best, with a 12 rd for a long string. I've never really liked the bird/buck/slug mix in comps, just because I'd never shoot bird in a defensive situation, and rarely if ever, slugs, so were I independently wealthy, I'd just run buck alone for training purposes.

    I figured you had a residency hookup, else I'd never have posted this.
     
  9. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

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    details on that CTR stock cover?
     
  10. Thunderbear

    Thunderbear Yggdrasil's Forester.

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    The cheek rest? I know shit about magpul, I'm a VLTOR whore. I can ask Jack if you want. I do know the front handguards and the optic mount are still in testing for production.
     
  11. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

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    That cheek rest looks like something that is is available for the m4 style stocks. You don't see much of them because on a AR it interfers with the charging handle.
     
  12. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

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    I would run all 10's or 12's. they take the same belt space. Shotgun arrays are typically 4 - 8 targets per position. This makes it easier for the tactical class guys (finger loading tube fed shotguns.)

    This bring up another point. The mag fed shotguns would only be legal in open class.

    As far as the bird shot they are meant to simulate buckshot. It's just too expensive to shoot 200 rounds of buck, and buck is really hard on the targety further adding expense.

    Really the shotgun portion of 3 gun is two thing. Learn to reload fast, don't miss. The person who does those two things best usually wins. The actual speed of the shooting comes in a distant 3rd. Really the guy who reloads fastest has the best chance to win. If they could make a selectable beta style shotgun drum where you could toggle right and left side that would be awesome. Load one side slugs and the other side bird.
     
  13. Ebtromba

    Ebtromba Active Member

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    someone run some numbers on this and get back to us.
     
  14. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    Yar,

    What's this rumor about Taran going to a mag-fed about? Is he thinking about shooting a Saiga, or is there another mag fed shotgun that I'm not aware of? Thought someone paid him to shoot Benelli?
     
  15. Admitted

    Admitted I shouldn't be on OT right now.

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    Some matches don't allow drums. I think the guys that shoot saiga right now have two, one with a magwell and one without.
     
  16. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

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    No benelli does not give anyone diddly squat for shooting their shotguns with the exception of maybe Tom Knapp. Taran has tried and with his resume he got nada.

    Taran is rumored to go to a saiga but as far as I know he hasn't even gotten the shotguns yet. I think the whole deal is probably going to hindge on what kind of deal he is going to get on the shotguns. If he got free equipment and support from sombody he would definately do it. If he has to come out of the pocket he would try to work out the math.
     
  17. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

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    The most popular rules at the moment uspsa time+ limits to 11 total in open. Thus max drum capacity is 10+1 or 11 is the stage calls for starting with a empty chamber. With the various "outlaw" rules such as img, ima etc it's whatever you want or start with 11 and load to whatever as soon as the buzzer starts.

    I forgot all about the magazine capacity rules. That would be a major wild card. If the rules allowed you to start with a high capacity drum, a lot of the open guys would switch over. Starting 20+1 would be a major advantage.
     
  18. Thunderbear

    Thunderbear Yggdrasil's Forester.

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    Mag limitations are lame. If it exists, should be legal for an Open class.

    Vid of firing hand mag drop:

    [y]oQwoBsjtQLk[/y]
     
  19. Thunderbear

    Thunderbear Yggdrasil's Forester.

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    Pallet to kindling conversion, SAIGA style

    [y]gESLOmz-4sc[/y]
     
  20. Thunderbear

    Thunderbear Yggdrasil's Forester.

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    Sinistral ripping it up in some comps with his S12.. albeit without the speed and sexy music of Ray-ray. :mamoru:

    [y]ulBn-PVq-AQ[/y]
     
  21. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

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    Does the bolt need to be open when you seat a new mag?
     
  22. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    No, but it does make it much easier.
     
  23. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    BTW, my fully optioned out Tromix 8" S12 should be shipping to my dealer within 2 weeks. A few months of waiting for my paperwork to return and that bitch is MINE. :eek:
     
  24. Thunderbear

    Thunderbear Yggdrasil's Forester.

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    Wirelessly posted via wap.offtopic.com (megingjörd: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D062; Blazer/4.5) 16;320x320)

    Like Austin said, no. But on rock and locks, it makes it easier. This magwell and mag mod should make that unnecessary.
     

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