LGBT Obama defined marriage as being between a man and a woman.....

Discussion in 'Lifestyle' started by OakleyTodd, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. OakleyTodd

    OakleyTodd New Member

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    so why will the gays still bowdown at his feet and kiss his ass? He was asked to define what marriage is. He plainly and simply said it's betwen a man and a woman. Guess he isn't the gay savior afterall. Just goes to show his views are based on public polls. Just like he has changed his views on off shore drilling.
     
  2. Naturally Baked

    Naturally Baked Active Member

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    Id rather have him then some war hungry old man who will probably die in office anyways...

    either way neither of them are going to make gay marriage legal....
     
  3. elevator

    elevator The tenants think it's wonderful! ヽ(´ OT Supporter

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    meh, I thought about voting for obama, but then read up on his gay marriage position and it's basically the same as McCain's. "It's a state issue, let them deal with it, marriage is one man, one woman, etc." WHAT CHANGE?

    Pandering to the religious right is pretty lame if you're suppose to be a dem

    So McCain is for me unless Romney is his VP pick
    Supporting small businesses ftw
     
  4. ManyHamsters

    ManyHamsters There are necessary pursuits... but poetry, beauty

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    Last edited: Aug 17, 2008
  5. Matitulo

    Matitulo If sexy never left then why is everybody on my shi

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    My understanding was that he always had the opinion that marriage should be between a man and a woman, but that he would leave it up to the individual states to decide. I haven't looked back into it in a while, though.
     
  6. TheMustafa

    TheMustafa hook 'em

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    He's very pro civil unions. Did you guys not watch the Democratic Logo debate?

    The only dem (or pres candidate) that supported full marriage rights was Kucinich, and we all see how far he went. Obama obviously cant support federally-mandated marriage rights... its way too unpopular and controversial an idea. Thats why he's leaving it up to the states, and so far that seems to be working alright.

    personally, who cares if you call it marriage or civil unions... whats important are the legal protections. you people who say "fuck obama because he doesnt support gay marriage" are obviously unaware of political realities in this country, and there are way more important issues (universal healthcare, education reform) to be addressed than gay marriage.
     
  7. philvia

    philvia SUCKIN ON MY TITTIES LIKE YOU WANTIN ME CALLIN ME

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    the only problem i have with civil unions is these 3 little words...

    "separate but equal"
    i really was disappointed that obama even agreed to have that "debate"
     
  8. dallasfan824

    dallasfan824 New Member

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    It doesnt matter who runs, gays ALWAYS support the democrat nominee no matter who it is or what their positions are.
     
  9. dallasfan824

    dallasfan824 New Member

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    Any politician on a national level who supports gay marriage is an idiot.
     
  10. DouggieJ

    DouggieJ OT Supporter

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    McCain supports (or at least is not against) civil unions that offer all the legal provisions that marriage does. "Marriage" is a bit of a loaded word that brings along with it religious implications that many will never agree with for gay partners. The "separate but equal" analogy is not applicable. The legal difference between a "gay civil union" and a "marriage" is nothing except for the word itself, it's not comparable to racially segregated schools, bathrooms, etc.
     
  11. elevator

    elevator The tenants think it's wonderful! ヽ(´ OT Supporter

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    I must not be gay :ugh2:
     
  12. ManyHamsters

    ManyHamsters There are necessary pursuits... but poetry, beauty

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    The problem is as much of a sociological nature as it is of a legal nature though. The word "marriage" itself is so loaded with social valuation, and means so much to so many that even if the rights were comparable between civil unions and marriage everywhere in the USA, most who have one denied to them because of biological factors will feel like second-class citizens. Canada's decision on gay marriage being legalized was based strongly upon that exact premise. [See the same sex marriage and civil unions sticky for our old Prime Minister's speech regarding the decision.]



    not that i personally disagree, in fact the healthcare issue in and of itself would be enough to have me vote democrat if i were an american citizen, but surely you see how subjective that thought process is, and why people may have other priorities
     
  13. OakleyTodd

    OakleyTodd New Member

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    This was the point I was try to get someone to make. People really should think for themselfs once in a while. In this election, there really is no 'pro-gay', or 'anti-gay' candidate.
     
  14. TheMustafa

    TheMustafa hook 'em

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    I dont see the subjectivity at all... whatever tiny subset of the already small gay population of the US who actually want to get married vs. the cumulative costs associated with our broken healthcare system, including costs to the gay population.

    gay marriage just really isnt that big of a deal in my book because it doesnt affect that many people
     
  15. Obama seems to be drifting more and more away from his ideas he had at the beginning and more towards typical Republican American ideals....it's sad...I used to be inspired when I would listen to his speeches online.
     
  16. Sam Gamgee

    Sam Gamgee Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right. OT Supporter

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    The gay and lesbian issues don't focus solely around marriage.

    There are so many other issues we're fighting for. Please read about what the Democratic Natioanal Committee is doing for gays and lesbians: http://www.hrc.org/11013.htm

    Or read it here:

    "This year’s Democratic Party Platform does more to address policy issues important to the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community than ever before. The 2008 Platform reiterates and strengthens past support for legislation that would protect our community, including calls for the passage of hate crimes and comprehensive employment discrimination legislation, and the repeal of the discriminatory "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy in our nation's military. It is historic and important to note that for the first time this year, the platform pledges to fight discrimination based on gender identity. The platform also supports the full inclusion of same-sex couples and their families, with equal rights, benefits and responsibilities. For the first time, the platform opposes the discriminatory Defense of Marriage Act, which bars federal recognition of even those same-sex couples legally married under state law. The platform also supports other issues of importance for GLBT, and all Americans, including a call for a national strategy to combat HIV/AIDS, support for fair and impartial judges not driven by ideology, and requirements that faith-based programs not use federal dollars to discriminate.

    The platform addresses many of our community’s critical issues, however it does not explicitly use the words gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender. While this has prompted much discussion, it is our responsibility as a community in this election year to compare this document with the soon-to-be-adopted Republican platform and to judge which party would best advocate for us. Additionally, we challenge the Republican Party to, for the first time, adopt equally supportive language.

    HRC applauds the efforts of GLBT members of the Drafting and full Platform Committees, including Congresswoman Tammy Baldwin (D-WI) and Diego Sanchez, the first-ever transgender member of the Platform Committee and a member of HRC's Business Council and Boston Steering Committee. Their presence is further testimony to the commitment of the Democratic Party to our community."
     
  17. Sam Gamgee

    Sam Gamgee Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right. OT Supporter

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    Here's why the human rights campaign (the organization that represents GLBT persons on capital hill) supports Sen. Obama

    http://www.hrc.org/10571.htm

    "WASHINGTON–The Human Rights Campaign, the nation’s largest gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender civil rights group, today announced that the organization will endorse Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) for president of the United States. The decision was made by the HRC Board of Directors based on Senator Obama’s support for GLBT equality, his demonstrated leadership, and his unwavering commitment to civil rights.

    "HRC is proud to throw our full support behind Senator Obama’s presidential campaign," said HRC President Joe Solmonese. "Senator Obama has consistently shown that he understands, as we do, that, GLBT rights are civil rights, and human rights. Senator Obama has said that embracing ‘our gay brothers and sisters’ is true to Martin Luther King’s vision; I know that Senator Obama’s vision is one of equality, fairness, and justice for all of us," he said. "We have just witnessed a historic primary contest in which two champions of our community demonstrated that they hear our voices and share our dreams. For millions across this country, their candidacies—as the first woman and the first African American to be top contenders for the nomination of a major party—have already been life-changing, inspiring, and groundbreaking. Senators Obama and Clinton both remained our allies whether they were campaigning in New Mexico or Nebraska; in California or Kansas. They are, quite simply, heroes to anyone fighting for equality,"

    Senator Obama supports federal benefits and protections for same-sex couples, a fully-inclusive Employment Non-Discrimination Act and hate crimes legislation, comprehensive sex education, the repeal of the military’s "Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell" policy, and increased funding for HIV/AIDS. He opposes the federal marriage amendment and bans on adoption by GLBT people. Senator Obama participated in HRC’s and Logo’s historic presidential forum in 2007, and submitted HRC’s presidential questionnaire.

    "The Human Rights Campaign has been at the forefront of the fight for GLBT equality and opportunity, and I am proud to have its endorsement," said Senator Obama. "Too often, the issue of GLBT rights is exploited by those seeking to divide us. But at its core, this issue is about who we are as Americans. I look forward to working with HRC to end discrimination against GLBT Americans and to ensure that all of our citizens are treated with dignity and respect."

    Solmonese concluded, "I’ve been consistently impressed by Senator Obama’s willingness to speak about GLBT issues in front of diverse audiences. Matters of life and livelihood for GLBT Americans are on the line in this election and after eight years of an anti-gay stranglehold on the presidency, Sen. Obama’s message of fairness and acceptance is a breath of fresh air."
     
  18. OakleyTodd

    OakleyTodd New Member

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    Intresting how the Democratic platform now includes the repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act, and the dont ask, dont tell policy.

    For 5 bonus points, can anyone name the President that institued both those items during his Presidency?

    Thats right folks, it was none other than Billy Boy Clinton, the great Democrat savior.

    Funny how the two most single anti-gay policies ever institued in this country were implemented by a Democrat. Of course the Democrats also opposed the abolishment of slavery, and it was a democrat senator that tried fillibuster the equal rights amendment, so should we really be suprized?
     
  19. zortnac

    zortnac New Member

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    He's being pragmatic, I think, keeping in mind that he needs to say what needs to be said to garner voters' favor. By pragmatic I mean...I think he has an official viewpoint that is malleable and easily changed, in its wording, depending on the type of audience, without contradicting itself. Check this out:

    To a socially conservative audience:

    "I believe marriage to be between man and a woman. I also believe that marriage is a matter of states' rights and should be up to each state to decide."

    That's two separate points, the first one a statement of belief that appeals to social conservatives, the second a statement that appeals to the more libertarian leaning republicans, many of which did not support the FMA on simple grounds of states' rights principles. Is it as socially conservative as what McCain would say? Definitely not.

    To socially liberal audience:

    "While I personally believe marriage is between a man and a woman, I fully support substantially identical civil unions, and it is each state's right to decide if marriage should be given to same-sex couples, and each church's right to define marriage as they wish."

    So this time his personal beliefs are not a main point, they're more of a quick preface to his main point, which is that he supports civil unions, and acknowledges each states right to establish full marriage equality. When he words it this way he's also able to imply how he feels about separation of church and state, something he wouldn't really want to imply to a socially conservative audience.

    I'm not quoting here, more paraphrasing from how I've heard him speak to different audiences. Does he support full marriage equality? Sadly, no. Few candidates did, and I also think it would be nice to see some more courage in that area.

    I think what matters is that as more and more states come around and start reaching full marriage equality either through legislation or judicial act, he won't utter the dreaded and over-used phrase of "activist judge" even once. The notion of an FMA will be even more dead in the water (if that's possible), and he'll support substantially identical civil unions, which, while not the end goal, are an important step.

    I really get the impression that he's a man who has personal beliefs about marriage, but knows that his personal beliefs should not stop a same-sex couple from having full identical marriage. He wouldn't dare say that in his campaign, and it's become obvious, but whether that's him being politically smart and pragmatic, or just being cowardly, I can't say.
     
  20. camarosrool

    camarosrool yes i am

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    what is it you are trying to do here?

    convert the closet crew to republicans?

    Please dont turn this into a stupid political flame fest

    diacf is there for a reason

    ALL parties are filled with hypocrisies and waffling and all sorts of crap
    Bill may have signed those two bills, but the alternative to dont ask dont tell was
    I am going to ask you and if you are honest I am not letting you in

    I think dont ask dont tell has worked out a little better dont you?
     
  21. T.I.

    T.I. New Member

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    I'm actually really scared of Obama.

    He has blue lips.
    And McCain has a neck growth...
     
  22. T.I.

    T.I. New Member

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  23. TheMustafa

    TheMustafa hook 'em

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    Apparently you don't remember what the fuck was going on when DOMA and DADT were passed, and Hillary tried to explain this several times, yet people keep harping on it.

    As far as DOMA goes, the issue was hot then, and individual states were running around trying to get amendments passed to their state constitutions defining marriage as between a man and a woman. DOMA prevented the need for this, and while DOMA will be easy to repeal (when the country is ready), getting amendments pulled from a bunch of state constitutions would have been extremely difficult. As hard as it is for you to understand, DOMA saved us 10-15 years in terms of civil rights.

    DADT was the simplest and easiest way to allow gays to serve in the military. Popular support for openly gay people serving still wasnt there, although its coming around. Honestly though, if you're serving in the military, you like being told what you can and cant do, and at least as a fag you can just suck a dick and get discharged.

    The point is that civil rights movements take decades, and DOMA and DADT (in the long run) will help the movement proceed. You have to let the bone heal before you can take off the cast.
     
  24. ManyHamsters

    ManyHamsters There are necessary pursuits... but poetry, beauty

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    you admit to the subjectivity of your opinion right there, themustafa :sadwavey:

    marriage is one of those issues that have to be forced upon people, as it is the comfort of the majority versus the comfort of the minority, there is too much social stigma surrounding it, and leaving it up to individual states generally only prolongs secondary status for minority rights, as history has shown

    not everyone thinks or lives as you do, on the macro level [i do as well]. you work in the medical field, you see the physical pain of others much more than the average person, feel its impact daily, see the constraints of the current health care system and admirably desire positive change in your field.

    the gay populace, on average, tends to be wealthier than the straight population in america. health care probably isn't the very top concern of many gays [unless they are a bit older], as they can mostly afford to pay or are insured for any health expenses that are incurred over their lifetime.

    instead, what impacts some [and i wager, most] very strongly, is social inequality. growing up with teasing, constant jokes, and being looked down upon is pretty much a way of life for most of us. imagine finding a partner after years of searching, and not being able to commit to each other in a union that is of equal social and legal standing to the heterosexuals in your populace

    separate but equal is unacceptable, and reeks of "otherness", and as citizens you deserve more from your government and your country :hs:
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2008
  25. ManyHamsters

    ManyHamsters There are necessary pursuits... but poetry, beauty

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    .

    indeed, you have to look at the long-term effects of any policy when weighing them against short-term setbacks

    i do like your medical analogies :)

    and just out of curiousity, whose proposed health-care system did you prefer, Hillary's or Obama's?
     

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