Need to get some oomph to friend's system. (budget)

Discussion in 'OT Technology' started by Biomechanoid, Apr 6, 2005.

  1. Biomechanoid

    Biomechanoid New Member

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    My friend says she wants some omph to her system, but doesn't want to spend more than $300 total. she has a decent aftermarket HU, but is still sitting wit stock speakers. I was thinking of suggesting a mild 8" sub, and some mid-grade 2-ways along with a small amp to power the sub (would run the 2-ways directly off the HU).

    any suggestions on some 2-ways (I believe the rear are 6x9's and the front are 5.25"), and amp/sub that would fit within the budget?
     
  2. veonake

    veonake OnT poster, OT lurker

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    Oomph? Does she mean bass? Does she listen to a lot of hip hop? Or, does she mean louder? If she means louder, she could probably just buy a decently powered amp, maybe something like a HiFonics and a pair of front speakers, like Infinitys. Does she have components or coaxials right now? I assume coaxials. What kind of car? Does the stock system sound ok, and just not loud enough?

    If she wants hip hop, I might get an midgrade Alpine 10" with an MTX or HiFonics amp. I might be off on the pricing of those though.

    Btw, just disconnect her rear speakers (she'll never notice) and get her some nice fronts instead with a capable amp.
     
  3. Bob from Marketing

    Bob from Marketing OT Supporter

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  4. ledzep73

    ledzep73 New Member

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    Why do you all always recomend that you disconnect the rears? The fronts on alot of cars are way down in the door, by your feet, and the rear speakers can be on top of the trunk. So why go with speakers that are by your feet, away from where your head is, over rear speakers, that are head level? It doesn't make sense to me, and the only place I really see people reccomend that you ditch the rears is on OT.

    And the stock speakers might not hold up agaisnt that much power, so just adding an amp could make it pretty easy to ruin the speakers she has, and to get a decent and and 2 sets of decent speakers will probally cost more than 300 bucks. Thats a pretty small budget for car audio.
     
  5. veonake

    veonake OnT poster, OT lurker

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    You'll generally see people saying it in places where there are audiophiles, rather than SPL freaks. You have sort of the right idea by saying that the sound stage is lower in the front than in the rear in some cars (not mine though, the rears are also in the doors). However, you are missing a couple of things:

    1) Rear speakers usually are coaxials. Meaning they will usually be poorer quality.
    2) Rear deck located speakers are always coaxials and are point straight up and then reflect off the rear window. This is not the best way to get good imaging and staging.
    3) Front speakers often are components, with the tweeters located fairly close to head level. Tweeters are much more directional than mid-woofer low in the doors, so this effectively raises the sound stage.
    4) Possibly the biggest thing you are missing is that sound is SUPPOSED to come from in front of you. When you listen to an orchestra or a rock band, you don't stand with your back to the music, do you? Certainly not. Only in surround sound movies, and the rare surround sound audio track is the sound supposed to be coming from behind. MOST audiophiles that only listen to music on their high end systems have only two speakers, and they are in front. And this is not at all due to lack of a budget. Audiophiles refer to it as "real stereo", here is an article: http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/realstereo_e.html

    So, the only reason you would ever need rear speakers in a car is for passengers (personally, I still would disconnect them, unless it's like a suburban) or if you have a DVD player in your car.

    No, adding an amp will most likely NOT ruin the speakers. Speakers are more often damaged by overdriving an amp, than overdriving the speakers. I.e. the amp begins to clip because you want it to be louder than it can be without distortion. This will hurt your speakers. It is not very often, except in very powerful systems (especially the SPL guys with their kilowatt subs) that you will blow your speaker by giving it too much power. Most speakers can handle more power than you would think. For instance, one guy won a SQ contest by simply adding an aftermarket amp to his stock speakers in a VW Jetta with the monsoon sound system.

    And, finally, like I said, she only needs one set of speakers and an amp, because she will be disconnecting her rears if she follows my advice. Therefore, she has say $150 for speakers, and $150 for an amp. If she buys off of ebay she can get herself something very decent for that price.

    I hope that clears some things up for you.
     
  6. ledzep73

    ledzep73 New Member

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    Ha, I got a real response that made me feel stupid. Damnit. I guess I will have to agree with everything you said, except that stock speakers are good. Some are just shitty, and cant hold any power without sounding like crap, are ripping apart. Economy cars don't have nice monsoon sound systems at all :p
     
  7. veonake

    veonake OnT poster, OT lurker

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    lol, I didn't mean to make you feel stupid.

    Did I actually say stock speakers are good though? I don't think I did, just that the stock Monsoon sound system speakers are fairly decent as shown by the guy that won the contest. Most stock speakers are pretty shitty, even often times on "premium" sound systems. I would consider a Jetta economy class (or close to it) and you can get the Monsoon in them. I do think that most stock speakers can handle more power than you would think though. I think you are getting the idea they are damaged easily as a result of shitty, underpowered amps that are driving them. Who knows. :hsugh:
     
  8. ledzep73

    ledzep73 New Member

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    Haha, I know you didn't really try to make me look stupid, but it was a post that was just like "You are wrong. *smack* Ownd bitch" I just felt silly. But yeah, I would say a Jetta isnt a bad car.. but that isn't the point. I know that my mothers speakers blew in her Escort, and she never turns them up half way. The paper they are made out of is pretty close to cardboard, and I don't remeber seeing any suspension on them really. I dunno. Every car has differnt speakers so I guess it depends on which car and year and all that good stuff.

    Totally random though, Saturns have really a really nice stereo in them. I was pretty damn confused, but it sounded pretty good.
     
  9. veonake

    veonake OnT poster, OT lurker

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    Well, I should also add that I am referring to cars within the past few years or so, not from the early 90's or earlier. The cones and suspensions on those are often total crap. I'm sure the speaker had a suspension surround, or it wouldn't move, or the cone would shoot out of the basket, haha. But, it was probably shitty. Either way, my main point was that an overdriven amp is often more responsible for speaker damage than a speaker that is too weak, but I think you got that.

    Now, if that guy would get back into this thread and clear up some things....
     
  10. ledzep73

    ledzep73 New Member

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    Hahah, yeah. But yeah, it did have a suspension, just enough to make it wiggle, but not really make any real music. You know what I mean. I guess anything from 2000 on up would be decent enough. I did get the point you were puttin out there, the whole crappy amp breaks shit. Its always better to be overpowerd than under powerd :)

    I was thinking, from the audiophile standpoint, ditch the rears. From the 'I want oomph' standpoint, wouldn't rears add oomph? I think oomph means bass or SPL. I usually have my windows down when I drive, so I plan to keep my rears either way, just because all that extra noise defeats the purpose of having a clear sound.
     
  11. veonake

    veonake OnT poster, OT lurker

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    Rears will of course add "oomph" because you are increasing air displacement in the car, leading to more volume, and often times rears are 6x9's which can put out lower frequencies more loudly, adding that kick. But, of course, a nice set of 6.5" components in the front should be able to do that as well.

    I'm not sure if I fully agree with the "well, I'm damaging SQ through having my windows open, so why try to improve at all", argument. Even with the windows down, a $400 component set will sound better than a $50 coaxial. ;)
     
  12. twistid

    twistid Banged By Super Models Moderator

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    coax's can sound as good, if not better than separates. also the build quality in most brands do not really differ between coax's and separates.
     
  13. veonake

    veonake OnT poster, OT lurker

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    Thanks for attempting to correct me when no correction was needed. I said "usually", which is the case. It's very rare to find a very high end coaxial. I've never seen an audiophile speaker that uses a coaxial. Well, once I read a DIY that used a woofer with a "whizzer", that's as close as I've seen. Of course a real nice coaxial will sound better than a shitty component set. I.e. f(x) = x is greater than f(x) = x^2 for values 0 < x < 1, but past that point it will never be greater.

    Anyway, introduce me into some audiophile grade speakers that uses coaxials, it would be interesting.
     
  14. ledzep73

    ledzep73 New Member

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    Well having them down will add a lot of ambiant noises and distortion that normally wouldnt be there. The sound from your speakers is the same, but what you hear isn't. It would be harder to tell the differance between some really nice Boston Z's over some pretty damn good Bostons, that are 300 bucks a pair instead of the 1000 bucks a pair. But two pairs of $300 speakers that have more SPL will be noticable with the windows down. I guess it depends on what you plan to do with what you will want to get. Two sets of nice speakers over one set of great speakers I mean. For your average person, more SPL is probally better that better SQ, in a car at any rate. And who doesn't like a bunch of SPL anyways? It can be fun.
     
  15. veonake

    veonake OnT poster, OT lurker

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    I am definitely aware how having the windows down interferes with sound quality and what sounds you receive from your speakers.

    Umm, you know that SPL stands for Sound Pressure Level, right? I.e. Volume or loudness? If by more noticeable, you mean louder, then yes.... something that is louder will always be more noticeable than something softer... I'm not sure what you are getting at.

    Just because a speaker is very high quality doesn't mean that it won't get loud. High-end speakers can get very loud, even if they weren't engineered as an SPL speaker. When you start looking at the differences between midrange Bostons (used to be their RS series I think, now the SL series) and the Boston Z series, you are talking about two completely different worlds. The Z series will be hooked up to some serious amplifiers with all the best stuff. Even with the windows down you should notice a difference, but then again, after a certain point (in terms of money) it gets harder and harder to tell a difference. I still maintain that you would notice a large and noticeable difference between say a $70 Pioneer speaker and the Boston Pro series with the windows down...

    Who doesn't like a whole bunch of SPL? Well, those of us that would still like our hearing when we are 40 so we can appreciate all the great equipment we will be able to afford at that point. I'm not saying I won't crank it every once in a while (afterall, I have over 400 watts going to my front speakers), I'll never blast it for more than a couple minutes, to be sure I'm not doing permanent damage. I went bowling last night and they had a DJ. I knew it was loud when I got in there, but only after I left and walked into the quiet parking lot did I realize how loud it was. I hate that temporary feeling of hearing loss. I almost feel like writing a letter to the place to complain. Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent.
     
  16. ledzep73

    ledzep73 New Member

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    Yeah I know what SPL is :p Im not that dumb. I guess Im just not explaining myself to well, it happens alot ya know. You know, are 'argument' is pointless, because we really are agreeing with each other, just that I don't know how to talk, so it is all fucked up. Yes, shitty speakers from best buy, all four of them, will suck compared to some Pro's, SL's or even NX's. But four NX's over two Pro's? Thats a tought call I think. You can't really say that SQ isn't hurt with ambiant noise, I mean how could it not be? You are hearing so much other stuff that having the nicest sound in the world is kinda silly when you add all the other stuff in to ruin that sound. So a set of Pro's will be about as good to use as a set of SL's when you add that extra noise. I didn't mean the shitty shitty speakers you can get vrs some really nice ones. There isnt really a comparison between then FX speakers and the SL's. FX isn't bad really, but it isn't SL.

    I would hope that a high end speaker would also be a high SPL and SQ speaker! If it wasn't I don't think I would want to call it high end.

    You know it is fun to be able to turn your stereo up pretty freakin loud and show a friend or just rock out to your favorite song. But I totally agree with the annoying loud freakin music DJ's love to assualt us with. Usually its not even good music. I hate that ringing noise also, it gets so annoying. Complain, and try and get a free round of bowling? Then go and enjoy the DJ again! I really don't like to sit around loud music for too long, but every now and then it is cool to be able to blast music so that the car beside you can enjoy some Led Zep or Tool right along with you.
     
  17. veonake

    veonake OnT poster, OT lurker

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    Well, I will definitely have to disagree with you over 4 NX's over two Pros. The decision wouldn't even be concious, I'd choose the Pro's in a second. More is not always better in my opinion. You are right that we are mostly agreeing for the most part with each other.

    Btw, about audiophile grade speakers. Just because a speaker can't get extremely loud does not remove it from the audiophile class. Audiophile speakers are all about pure SQ, not SPL. I was merely saying that most audiophile grade speakers can also produce a lot of volume, but this is not always true. It's a correlatory relationship, not causal.
     
  18. ledzep73

    ledzep73 New Member

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    Well, it depends on what you plan to do. Just being in the car with wind noise and engine noise and all that other good stuff will take away from how well you can hear the music. For most people, a pair of NX's is just as good as a pair of Pro's. Ok well maybe a pair of SL's and Pro's, but hey. Pro's are good, but SL's get the job done just as well for most people.

    Well I don't mean really loud like 140 dB, but something that isn't quiet. But yeah. Im gonna get steak and shake. Ill talk to you later man, you seem like a pretty cool cat, and you know youre shit more than I do (wow, that was hard to say, I hate not being first :).) Just wondering, how old are you?
     
  19. veonake

    veonake OnT poster, OT lurker

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    lol, thanks man. I'm 20 (birthday's in my profile ;)), you?

    You're right, for the average joe that wants to jam to his music, he/she very well may not notice a difference between some NX's and some Pro's. I'm not the average joe with regards to my audio and music taste though, so that's probably why I'm being so biased. Btw, don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with you that having your windows down and engine running won't take away from SQ.
     
  20. ledzep73

    ledzep73 New Member

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    Ha, you half way said it, even if my reading comprehension is crap, I was half right. Or maybe not. Whatever. Pretty much I read it as "Great speakers sound great! Wind rushing thru your car while your driving at 60 mph won't change what you hear in the slightest!" So I will admit that I suck, and I almost wish I would have kept my mouth shut, except that I did learn why everyone says rears are evil. I always have had mine faded to front about halfway, but I like having the rears there also. Probally cause my fronts arn't the best and my rears are pretty damn good, for components at least. No one really needs Pro's or anything like them ($500 is a shitload to spend on one pair of speakers and all) but they are great for the audiophiles out there. I would have checked your profile, but I can't afford one. I work full time and can't bring myself to spend 15 bucks, or however much it is, on a sub just yet. Im only 16, and just now learning about all this audio stuff. I have always been a music freak, but I never really cared about speakers and whatnot till recently. Main reason I got into it all was when I had a car and money to spend on a stereo for it, figured I might as well learn about the shit, and found that it was actually pretty fun stuff. But anywho, this person still hasn't come in here, and we really havn't said "this would be great!" for them either.

    If they don't want to go with one set of spekaers with an amp, FX series would be in the price range, or some of the JL stuff. I know www.onlinecarstereo.com has some JL CXi stuff for like 100 under MSRP, and two pairs of that off the head unit wouldnt be bad, even if waaay less power than you would want. Maybe some SL's or some nice kenwoods if they wanted just some fronts. I don't even know why I am sugesting anything, because really the best way to do it, is to just go to a local shop and listen to them, and see what you like. Boston, JL, and Memphis all make some really nice speakers, but they all sound a little differnt. Just depends on what you want. Its freakin 5:40, and I have work tomorrow. I should go to sleep, instead of rambling on the interweb and making no sense while Im at it. Sleep deprivation owns me.
     
  21. veonake

    veonake OnT poster, OT lurker

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    Well, for 16, you know a fair amount, keep learning, I sure am.
     

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