GUN lol at this blast from the past- NYPD WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Ebtromba, Nov 29, 2007.

  1. Ebtromba

    Ebtromba Active Member

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    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...93AA35754C0A96E958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1

    some things never change. the usual suspects saying the usual things. interesting snippets of Rudy Giuliani too.




    NEW YORK POLICE WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS

    By MICHAEL COOPER
    Published: July 9, 1998


    The New York City Police Department is planning to equip its entire force of almost 40,000 members with hollow-point bullets, which cause much greater injury to people they strike but are considered less likely to cut down bystanders.

    Police Commissioner Howard Safir said yesterday that within the next 60 days the hollow-point bullets would begin replacing the old full-metal-jacket bullets that officers now use. Unlike the old bullets, the hollow points flatten upon impact and then expand, helping stop the bullet from passing through its target but causing a wider wound -- and inflicting more severe internal damage, forensic experts say.

    The Commissioner first announced his intention to have the department switch to hollow-point bullets -- which are already used by Federal law enforcement agencies and by dozens of other major police departments across the country -- in March 1997 after the Police Department had budgeted $500,000 on nine million rounds of the ammunition.

    But Mr. Safir's announcement came as Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani was running for re-election, and after critics expressed concerns that the new bullets could prove more lethal, the Mayor halted the plan, saying that the issue needed further study. o'rly, further study?

    Yesterday, after the Civilian Complaint Review Board, the independent agency charged with monitoring the police, presented its own report recommending the switch to hollow-point bullets, Mr. Safir said that he had already made the decision to use them and that he expected the first shipments to arrive within 60 days.

    ''We are, in fact, going to switch to hollow-point ammunition as soon as we receive it,'' he said. ''They are much safer than fully jacketed bullets, which will go through a person or tumble through a person's organs and then continue on and hit innocent victims.''

    The Commissioner added that the Police Department had conducted its own tests and decided that the hollow-point bullets would be an improvement. ''It is the standard around the world in law enforcement to use hollow points,'' (well ya don't say. remember this is 1998) he said.

    Other police officials have pushed for the bullets because they are more effective in stopping dangerous criminals, and they say that aspect further protects bystanders because officers have to fire fewer shots to incapacitate their targets. The public can also legally buy these bullets. oh noes!!!! save us from the ted nugents!!!!

    But some people worried that the Police Department was making the decision without sufficient public discussion or hard data. Norman Siegel, the executive director of the New York Civil Liberties Union and a frequent critic of the police, said that while hollow-point bullets would be less likely to ricochet or pass through objects and strike bystanders, they would cause significantly more damage to any innocent bystanders who were hit directly. And he pointed out that since as many as a fifth of police officers who are shot are hit by police gunfire, the officers themselves could sustain graver injuries.

    ''This needs more discussion,'' he said.
    (I put that in pink to show the :greddy: of it all)

    Forensic experts said that the use of hollow points entailed a trade-off.

    ''It increases the wound's capacity to the victim, but it reduces a risk that the police are always concerned about: the risk of the bullet perforating the intended target and injuring a bystander,'' said Dr. Stephen Hargarten, the director of the Firearm Injury Center in Milwaukee, Wis. ''On the one hand, it makes shootings safer in public settings. On the other hand, the impact on the victim is greater.''

    In New York City, police officers in the Transit Bureau and the Housing Bureau have used hollow-point bullets since 1990, before they merged with the Police Department. Officials have debated whether to give the rest of the force hollow-point ammunition since at least 1994, when a proposal to make the switch was put off because there was not enough data.

    The decision to arm officers with hollow-point bullets comes five years after the Police Department, after much anguished debate, agreed to allow its officers to upgrade their weapons by trading in their old .38-caliber service revolvers for 9-millimeter semi-automatic pistols.

    Critics feared that the added capacity of the 9-millimeter pistols -- which hold 16 bullets, compared with the old six-shooters -- and the ease with which they allow officers to fire multiple rounds would lead to more accidental shootings.

    And while there were troubling incidents early on -- including a shootout outside a Chinese restaurant in Queens in 1995 in which police officers fired 247 rounds and killed a bystander -- the number of shooting incidents has decreased each year since 1995.

    To bolster its argument in favor of the hollow bullets, the Police Department pointed to recent statistics involving gunshots that hit innocent bystanders.

    According to statistics released by the department, 15 innocent bystanders were struck by police officers using full-metal-jacket bullets during 1995 and 1996, the police said. Eight were hit directly, five were hit by bullets that had passed through other people and two were hit by bullets that had passed through objects.

    In that same period, officers in the Transit Bureau, who already used the hollow points, struck six bystanders. Four of them were hit directly, one was hit by a bullet that ricocheted and another was hit by a bullet that passed through an object.

    In that same period, 44 police officers were struck by police gunfire using the old ammunition: 21 were hit directly, 2 were struck by bullets that ricocheted and 17 were struck by bullets that passed though other people. Of the four officers struck by hollow-point bullets, three were hit directly and one was hit by a bullet that passed through another person.

    Mayor Giuliani, who praised the review board for favoring the hollow-point bullets, appeared to be unaware at his news briefing yesterday morning that the decision to use the bullets had already been made. ''It's really ultimately up to the Police Department,'' he said in his morning briefing.

    ''It should be able to save lives,'' he said of the switch. ''It should be able to reduce the amount of innocent bystanders who are shot.''

    Mr. Siegel, of the New York Civil Liberties Union, said that he was suspicious of the timing of the Civilian Complaint Review Board's report, which made its recommendations yesterday based on interviews with police officials, a field trip to the police firing range (LOL. "daddy I shot a gun today, that means I can tell cops what gear to use!!! yay!!!!") , several ballistics reports from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and material provided by ammunition companies. Members of the review board said comprehensive statistical analysis from other cities on the use of hollow-point bullets were unavailable.

    ''It is not clear and convincing that hollow points are necessary, prudent and safe for the people of the city of New York,'' Mr. Siegel :)greddy:) said. ''There was really no public input and no real process here. They're going to have more resistance and cynicism because the process was incomplete and not open.''
     
  2. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    So what's their departmental hit ratio these days?
     
  3. idleprocess

    idleprocess Bring a dollar with you baby in the cold cold grou

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    Amusing that an internal matter that would have a forgone, common-sense conclusion anywhere else would be so hotly-debated in NYC.
     
  4. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    Funny, but understandable; their manpower is something in the neighborhood of 40,000. Lots of dynamic and politics usually only seen in cities going on there.
     
  5. Werm

    Werm Guest

    Most use hallow points because of impact and shock, more stopping ability. All bullets are dangerous but with bullets like FMJ there is a greater chance of over penetration and bleeding to death.

    You can't convince a rock.
     
  6. Alphaeus

    Alphaeus New Member

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    So they're going to arm themselves with civilian-killer bullets to counter those dangerous cop-killer bullets the bad guys use out there? :eek3:
     
  7. Joe Somebody

    Joe Somebody OT Supporter

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    Pathetically low.
     
  8. Jurisbot Esq.

    Jurisbot Esq. Don't blame me I voted for Ron Paul. OT Supporter

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  9. PanzerAce

    PanzerAce Active Member

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    :rofl:
     
  10. TL1000RSquid

    TL1000RSquid ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Members' Accuracy At Distance Fired:

    00 - 02 Yds
    Uniformed Members Of Service: 64
    Number Of Shots Fired: 127
    Number Of Hits: 65
    Percentage Of Hits: 51

    03 - 07 Yds
    Uniformed Members Of Service: 44
    Number Of Shots Fired: 155
    Number Of Hits: 68
    Percentage Of Hits: 44

    08 - 15 Yds
    Uniformed Members Of Service: 40
    Number Of Shots Fired: 205
    Number Of Hits: 14
    Percentage Of Hits: 7

    16 - 25 Yds
    Uniformed Members Of Service: 7
    Number Of Shots Fired: 93
    Number Of Hits: 5
    Percentage Of Hits: 5

    Over 25 Yds
    Uniformed Members Of Service: 0
    Number Of Shots Fired: 0
    Number Of Hits: 0
    Percentage Of Hits: 0

    Not Stated
    Uniformed Members Of Service: 11
    Number Of Shots Fired: 36
    Number Of Hits: 2
    Percentage Of Hits: 6

    Totals ('05)
    Uniformed Members Of Service: 166
    Number Of Shots Fired: 616
    Number Of Hits: 154
    Percentage Of Hits: 25

    Officer Statistics

    Weapons Used By Officers In Shooting Incidents
    Revolvers: 4
    Semi Amutomatic Pistols: 156
    Ithaca 37 Shotgun: 1
    Colt M4: 0
    H&K MP5: 1
    Ruger Mini-14: 0
    M24 Rifle: 0
    Non-Standard Weapon: 4

    Shooting Incidents (Defense Of Self/Others)
    Shooting Incidents (Defense Of Self/Others): 43
    Total Number Of Officers Who Fired: 64
    Total Number Of Shots Fired: 196
    Total Number Of Hits: 59
    Percentage Of Hits: 30 percent
    Shots Fired Per Incident: 4.6
    Shots Fired Per Officer Per Incident: 3.1

    Shooting Incidents (Dogs)
    Shooting Incidents (Dogs): 32
    Total Number Of Officers Who Fired: 35
    Total Number Of Shots Fired: 93
    Total Number Of Hits: 58
    Percentage Of Hits: 62 percent
    Shots Fired Per Incident: 2.9
    Shots Fired Per Officer Per Incident: 2.7

    Shooting Incidents (Gunfights)
    Shooting Incidents (Gunfights): 16
    Total Number Of Officers Who Fired: 35
    Total Number Of Shots Fired: 276
    Total Number Of Hits: 23
    Percentage Of Hits: 8 percent
    Shots Fired Per Incident: 17.3
    Shots Fired Per Officer Per Incident: 7.9

    Shooting Incidents (Accidental)
    Shooting Incidents (Accidental): 24
    Total Number Of Officers Who Fired: 24
    Total Number Of Shots Fired: 25
    Total Number Of Hits: 10
    Percentage Of Hits: 42 percent
    Shots Fired Per Incident: 1.04
    Shots Fired Per Officer Per Incident: 1.04

    Shooting Incidents (Suicide And Attempted)
    Suicide (2), Attempted (1): 3
    Total Number Of Officers Who Fired: 3
    Total Number Of Shots Fired: 4
    Total Number Of Hits: 4
    Percentage Of Hits: 100 percent
    Shots Fired Per Incident: 1.3
    Shots Fired Per Officer Per Incident: 1.3

    Shooting Incidents (Other)
    Other: 5
    Total Number Of Officers Who Fired: 5
    Total Number Of Shots Fired: 22
    Total Number Of Hits: 1
    Percentage Of Hits: 5 percent
    Shots Fired Per Incident: 4.4
    Shots Fired Per Officer Per Incident: 4.4
     
  11. PanzerAce

    PanzerAce Active Member

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    :rofl:

    holy fuck the popo sucks at killing people, doesn't it?
     
  12. TL1000RSquid

    TL1000RSquid ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Well they have 100% hit ratio for suicide :mamoru:
     
  13. PanzerAce

    PanzerAce Active Member

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    oh snap.



    that will probably be the funniest thing I will read all day.
     
  14. vwpilot

    vwpilot New Member

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    Boy, I'd like to find the statistics for civilians with ccw shootings and compare the accuracy of the civilians to the police. I would bet that the civilians have a better hit ratio than the police do. If that is the case, that would be a great argument to argue the benefit of civilians being allowed to arm themselves. The Supreme Court might even like to see those numbers when ruling on the DC issue.
     
  15. smartypants

    smartypants New Member

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    McCain "Hey Ron, do either of us have a chance?"

    Paul shakes head wistfully
     
  16. Cannondale

    Cannondale OT Supporter

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    That's freaking scary...

    When I took my CHL course, I had a 100% body hit ratio, and a 99.2% center ring ratio over 50 shots. That's 20 at 3 yards, 20 at 7 yards, and 10 at 15 yards. The only shots that were not in the center ring were 2 of my 15 yard shots, and they were barely outside. That was before I actually went to the range and practiced all the time too. What kind of training do they make officers go through in New York?
     
  17. Ebtromba

    Ebtromba Active Member

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    :ugh::ugh::ugh:

    shooting at paper =! shooting at a person in real life to stop a threat
     
  18. Cannondale

    Cannondale OT Supporter

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    I know paper and people are not the same thing, but damn. These are people who are supposed to protect and serve, a 0-2 yard shot should have WAY higher hit rate than 51%. After 7 yards, their scores drop off to below 10%, that is more dangerous for everyone around the criminal than the criminal at that point. Maybe that is the norm, but at any rate it's pretty scary thinking about all that stray gunfire.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2007
  19. smartypants

    smartypants New Member

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    [FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]In Korea, the rate of soldiers unwilling to fire on the enemy decreased and fifty five percent of the soldiers fired at the enemy. In Vietnam, this rate increased to about ninety five percent but this doesn't mean they were trying to hit the target. In fact it usually took around fifty-two thousand bullets to score one kill in regular infantry units!

    How about one per 50K?


    [/FONT]
     
  20. Katsumoto

    Katsumoto New Member

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    It drives me nuts when people bitch about that, they have no clue how they would peform in the same situation. Taking your sweet ass time shooting a paper target inside an indoor range is so far different from what leo's encounter, the two shouldn't even be mentioned together. Being scared for your life and making nanosecond decisions do not help firearm manipulation. Most of the cops I know shoot very well at the range for whatever that's worth.
     
  21. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    So from that we might infer that Siegel has a valid point. :noes:
     
  22. Cannondale

    Cannondale OT Supporter

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    I heard concealed handgun holders have a much higher hit ratio than LEOs. If that's true, you have to ask why civilians have a better ratio than police trained to protect people. They are generally dealing with the same scum, and CCW holders rarely have backup. I understand police have a dangerous job, and I'm not making light of it, so let's not start a flame war about that. I have family that are in law enforcement, and I make sure and tell them I appreciate their work when I see them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2007
  23. smartypants

    smartypants New Member

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    Data?
     
  24. Cannondale

    Cannondale OT Supporter

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    My CHL instructor :dunno:
     
  25. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

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    NO FUCKING SHIT!?lc
     

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