GUN Let's talk pistol caliber, short barrel carbines

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by spankaveli, Nov 11, 2009.

  1. spankaveli

    spankaveli OT Supporter

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    Why? Why not?

    I know this has probably been discussed time and time again but I'm thinking about doing this for my next AR build.

    Obviously the pistol calibers (9mm will be where I go) don't need the barrel length of a carbine and I'm thinking something like 7-9" would be ideal but still might be too much barrel. Well, maybe not "too much" so much as not needed. Or maybe 5" and a can?

    What say those of you who actually know what the fuck you're talking about?

    Primary use would be HD and/or Car rifle.

    The only valid argument I can think of this comes from a fight stopping ballistics point of view. The reason we don't carry rifles is because they're too big so we carry inferior pistols. Going to a rifle will give stability, higher sustained rate of fire, longer sight radius, increased shootability, etc but the ballistics are the same. Is the con (sub-par ballistics) worth the pros ?
     
  2. I've posted about it. You're going to see a little more effective range out of one, but for the added size and weight you're really still better off with a real rifle round. The external ballistics of a SBR pistol carbine aren't really impressive, and the terminal ballistics aren't significantly better than from a pistol. If you're going to carry a rifle, why not have it shoot rifle ammo?

    A SBR 5.56 AR is the same length, weight, and everything as a SBR pistol caliber AR, but with massively better external and terminal ballistics. Why choose the pistol?
     
  3. spankaveli

    spankaveli OT Supporter

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    My decision would mostly be based upon ammunition price, availability and accessibility.
     
  4. Crossett

    Crossett New Member

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    10mm spits in the face of every other handgun caliber... duh
     
  5. vwpilot

    vwpilot New Member

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    They're fun to shoot. I have a 7" on my 9mm AR and I think its a good length. Its not too short so its well balanced when shooting and not too long and easily takes a suppressor.

    Its mainly a range toy for fun though and nothing more than that.
     
  6. For personal protection? Why not build a rifle caliber one, use cheap ammo when you practice with it, like everyone does, and keep a quantity of real defensive ammo in reserve for actual use? Anyways, .223/5.56 is plenty accessible and available.
     
  7. That's my opinion of them.
     
  8. vwpilot

    vwpilot New Member

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    They are actually not bad for HD. A 7" AR would be horrible to shoot in the home, while the 9mm would handle better than a longer SBR in .223 and not be nearly as deafening and horrible to shoot in a closed room, while still giving plenty of effectiveness.

    With a red dot on it, its probably easier to shoot more accurately and handle than a handgun around the house as well.

    I see no issue with using it in such a situation. Stopping power may not be that much better if at all, than a pistol, but it handles well and can have more capacity as well if you think that is needed.

    It could easily be more than a range toy. After all, the legendary MP5 has stopped a lot of people in its 9mm form over the years.
     
  9. Hibidi-Shibidi

    Hibidi-Shibidi New Member

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    I agree with MG. With the stuff that I have looked into (admittedly, not a lot), a 5.56 SBR is substantially better than a 9mm carbine.

    Looking at it from a stopping standpoint, the 9mm rounds you will be shooting will have been made for pistol ammunition. I wouldn't expect the ballistic coef to swing much either way especially if you went 5".

    The way I rationalized getting out of the pistol caliber when I was thinking of doing an SBR build was that when I get back to my rifle, I want it to do what a rifle is intended to do. Inherently more accurate (you covered that part) and stop threats more efficiently.

    Given that the 9mm build would be the same caliber as the weapon you would be using to retreat to the rifle, the stopping power of the caliber should be taken out of the equation. IE if you are retreating to something of the same caliber, that is one less benefit to getting to the SBR.

    Like MG said and you made reference to in your last paragraph, going to 5.56 only adds to what you have listed as benefits of having the rifle. Don't leave a harder hitting round out of the equation if the benefit is there and the cost is marginal.
     
  10. Everything will be loud. If you're really worried about it, use a KX3 or a suppressor.
     
  11. Rip The Jacker

    Rip The Jacker New Member

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    My first SBR is going to be a 9mm AR, 5" 3-lug barrel.

    I thought shorter AR's have reliability issues?
     
  12. vwpilot

    vwpilot New Member

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    Everything is loud, but have you actaully shot a 7" .223 and a 9mm? There is a absolute insane difference. Enough so that I would bet that most people would actually cower and hesitate after that first shot inside. A 9mm SBR is actually less concussive than a pistol.

    Yes, you could do a suppressor, but then start to give up the advantage of an SBR.

    I'm not arguing that a rifle caliber isnt better. I'm saying that 9mm can be enough and if you want a fun gun to shoot at the same time, there is nothing wrong with having it as an SBR and using it for HD if you have it.

    But hey, we all know you are the end all be all of gun info on this forum and your opinions are facts, so why do the rest of us even bother to give input.

    You're getting to be as bad as what you always complained about yar being. Actually worse cause with yar there was always a sense of him just being conceited for the fun of it, but with you its like if we dont take your word as fact we're all piles of shit that have no business being here. Take that as just some friendly advice you might want to think about when posting.
     
  13. Crossett

    Crossett New Member

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    How was the beach?
     
  14. Rip The Jacker

    Rip The Jacker New Member

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    hey vagina.
     
  15. Don't start that shit. Have I acted at all in a negative way in here? A problem was raised and I offered a solution. Sorry if you and I clash because you claim crazy things (1/2 MOA FNAR, that my shot group is more than an inch) but don't pretend I'm being combative in here. I think I offered a reasonable opinion, and didn't say anything negative about anyone. If you've got a problem with me, PM me about it. Don't wreck this thread because you're looking for a fight. Shit, I even agreed with you earlier in here.
     
  16. vwpilot

    vwpilot New Member

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    MG's a good shooter and knows quite a bit, but all his opinions are not fact.

    Also, I'm sure he is a great guy and I'd love to shoot with him, I may sound like I'm being a dick and an ass, but truthfully have nothing against him as a person at all. I just think that he is a little to firm about what he thinks is right here and it does get a little old listening to him speak of rifles like hes Carlos Hathcock and knows all there is to know and we should all listen to him.

    Sorry, just MY opinion and impression of him at times. Forgive me for saying so and I hope it doesnt offend him.
     
  17. Crossett

    Crossett New Member

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    It's not a fan club you fucking twat. People put up their opinions in answer to questions, it's really not that hard to understand. Yes, of course a rifle round SBR will be a fuck ton louder than a pistol round SBR. Either of them is going to be painful after a couple rounds indoors with no hearing protection.

    *edit*
    I caught your ninja edit :mamoru:
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2009
  18. Really, what am I supposed to say? Should I preface everything I post with IMHO? I figured it's a given that most of what's posted in here by everyone is opinion. Feel free to challenge anything I say as long as we can keep it civil. I know I can do it, hell even yar and I have had civil arguments. I'm not pretending to be carlos hathcock, but I think we can give more useful opinions if we can back them up with things we've done and extrapolate from there. I'm not implying that you haven't done things either, simply that a recounting of past experience can serve as the foundation for an opinion, as long as it's relevant.

    If you want to talk about things like terminal ballistics or external ballistics, then yeah, I am speaking as a matter of fact, because it's objectively provable. If you want to talk about sound levels and the like, then we are both going to have to be working based of opinions since we don't know what each person's sound tolerance is. That doesn't mean I'm trying to be combative, I'm just saying that I think.
     
  19. vwpilot

    vwpilot New Member

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    Wow, you caught that quote quick. I didnt mean to post that first line, I typed it then reconsidered and hit post before I deleted.

    Sorry for that. Heat of the moment that I didnt mean to say.

    Just read back though. In his first post he said he realized that the ballistics were no different. He knows what he is talking about and what he's getting into. He did ask for an opinion, however, MG just kept saying over and over again it wasnt worth it and even when valid other arguments were made, he continued on his opinion like he was telling others we're wrong.

    Just like the other thread. Has he ever even held an FNAR and then is claiming it isnt a sub MOA or even a 1/2 MOA rifle? I bet not, yet he kept saying it like its truth.

    Just state an opinion, leave it at that and let others take it for what it is and dont drive it home like its some kind of fact.

    Sorry for this. You guys have a nice day.
     
  20. Rip The Jacker

    Rip The Jacker New Member

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    MG does come off as somewhat(very slightly) knowitall-ish, but I wouldnt say he's too bad about it, and never comes of as if you dont listen to him you're an idiot.
     
  21. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    So has a .22lr, but it doesn't mean its a good choice. The fact that the smg and shotgun are essentially dead for entry style work should tell you everything you need to know.

    Getting a stock on anything gives you a huge advantage for putting shots where you want them, but if you're getting that size you might as well be shooting a rifle cartridge. In the unlikely event you need to shoot it without your ears on you can go "owwww" and rub your vagina later.

    edit: I'm not convinced the sight radius is relevant for HD distances. The right 5.56 round is also more suited penetration wise to HD than jhps. Don't forget the soft armor defeating ability of the rifle. Totally unlikely but again if you're going for that size...nice bonus.
     
  22. Crossett

    Crossett New Member

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    Or just suppress it like I am :o
     
  23. I'm really interested in what you took exception with here. I really don't think I said anything out of line. I offered my opinion when an opinion was solicited.

    As to the FNAR thing, I know how hard it is to actually shoot 1/2moa, and I know what kind of ammo and rifle work goes into it. I'm fairly confident that a rifle like that (not that there's anything wrong with it) could shoot like that. Maybe it can. If you can find an example of it (even it it's pure luck) then tell me and I'll admit I was wrong.
     
  24. Moved to PM. We're all good again. :hug:
     
  25. ChipOnShoulder

    ChipOnShoulder New Member

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    A pistol carbine would be preferred to a regular pistol, but for all practical considerations for a civilian in the US acquiring a weapon for fun, personal defense, or zombie defense, a rifle caliber SBR or even a AR/AK "pistol" just makes more sense.

    There is nothing to be gained from a pistol caliber carbine over a SBR/pistol AK/AR except for simplified logistics. For some bizarre reason, i've noticed that pistol caliber carbine fanboys will defend their choice in firearms fereverently. Excuses have ranged from having a bad back ("that fucking thing weighs 6 pounds!"), to not wanting to confuse the wife in regards to buying ammo.

    Whatever. Looking at external and terminal ballistics, and the hassle of acquiring the weapon/accesories, and capabilities, an AR or AK pistol/SBR is simply a lot more versatile. The big secret with AR pistols is that ARs recoil so little, you can pretty much use the buffer tube as a stock. Sure, you'll look like a fag when you post pics on Arfcom, but the zombies won't care.
     

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