GUN Lessons Learned in Iraq: equimpent related

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by smell my finger, Jul 26, 2003.

  1. smell my finger

    smell my finger strive nonetheless towards beauty and truth,

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    http://www.sftt.org/article06102003a.html


    cliff notes:


    m9: :down:

    m4: :bigthumb: , except @ longer ranges (500 yards +)

    .50 barret: :bigthumb: :bigok: ... though the leopuld scope was deemed a poor match, due to the fact that the between zeroed distances were hard to accourt for

    Interceptor body armor: :bigthumb:

    the boots and shocks could have been better, and troops purchased a lot of items to help with the storage/use of various gear.. also communication in the field left soemthing to be desired.
     
  2. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    there's some really biased stuff in there, and some stuff that's not addressed adequately. soldiers weren't happy with the MAGS and AMMO for their M9's. they didn't have a problem with the M9 itself. and since they're issued ball ammo, and probably really old mags, these problems could be fixed easily with some gold dots or equivalent, and new mag springs.

    also, this is from the article:

    There is also a significant safety issue that bears further investigation. Apparently when the M4 selector is in the "Safe" position and the bolt is allowed to ride forward, the firing pin still makes contact with the bullet primer. A CSM in the 101st related a story of a soldier who had an accidental discharge while his weapon was in the safe position - the CSM personally witnessed this incident. Numerous soldiers showed us bullets in their magazines that had small dents in the primer. There may be a "Safety of Use" message out on this issue but it is not well known at the battalion-and-below level.

    this is from AR15's ammo faq's:

    Q. I chambered a round in my AR and then unloaded it later. The primer has a small dent in it, apparently from the firing pin. Should I be worried about this? Won't that cause a slam-fire? Should I switch to a Titanium firing pin?
    A gas-operated semiautomatic operates on gas bled from the barrel. This gas is channeled to the bolt operator, which blows the bolt open and ejects the spent shell casing. A heavy spring then returns to bolt carrier to the closed and locked position on the next round. In the case of weapons with free floated firing pins (SKS, AR-15, etc.), the inertia of the firing pin carries it forward and it strikes the primer as the bolt closes. (The "slam"). Generally this will dimple the primer and leave a small indent. This isn't anything to worry about as primers for centerfire .223 and 5.56mm are pretty "hard" and aren't likely to be set off by this impact.

    Early M-16s had a problem with slamfiring because of the firing pin design. Eventually Colt redesigned the pin to be lighter and therefore carry less energy into the primer.

    Slam-fires are pretty rare in modern ARs provided they are well maintained but they can be caused by a broken or protruding firing pin, foreign matter on the bolt face that is carried into the primer, foreign matter in the firing pin assembly that prevents it from retracting sufficiently, overly soft or poorly seated primers, or other malfunctions.

    As for titanium firing pins, they are probably not worth the headache. Indeed they are lighter and may reduce the already small chance of slamfires, but titanium also does not handle impacts well and can be brittle. A broken or cracked titanium firing pin is a lot more likely to cause a slamfire than a regular pin.

    [​IMG]

    the problems with adequacy of the M855 round out of the M4 barrel could be easily fixed with the 75 gr. round, or heavier. many units had access to this round, and all of them loved it. many marine units filed after action reports requesting the round, because the M855 doesn't have enough velocity at that range to begin yawing. and the longer 75 gr. round has a better ballistic profile, so it'll be more accurate. in fact, last year's 1,000 yd. match at camp perry was won by a marine with an M4 and iron sights. he was probably using 100 gr. rounds though.

    ha. this is funny:The soldiers are also knowledgeable about silk weight underwear.
     
  3. smell my finger

    smell my finger strive nonetheless towards beauty and truth,

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    i agree completely with your assement of the 9mm ammo... but as far as i know the military only uses (or mostly uses for most forces) ball ammo ... and 9m is somewhat inadiquet in that form... so as long as the military keeps using ball ammo, they should stay away from a 9mm hand gun
     
  4. smell my finger

    smell my finger strive nonetheless towards beauty and truth,

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    i dont know if it's wise to arm our troops with weapons they dont trust
     
  5. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    Unfortunately, any pistol round in ball is pretty ineffective if you don't hit CM. They are required to use FMJ except for limited circumstances (enemies classified as "terrorists" for example).

    The US military by large spends almost no time practicing with a pistol. More range time would give them greater confidence in their sidearms.
     
  6. Scoob_13

    Scoob_13 Anything is possible, but the odds are astronomica

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    I would have loved to have seen that :bigthumb:
     
  7. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    oh, and once again, the 5.7 round is a shallow-wound round, at best, assuming it even yaws at all. the FBI did its own tests of the round, and stated afterward not that FN lied, but that their "results are suspect." meaning, the round does NOT perform like FN would like everyone to think it does. even if it did, it's still WAY too shallow a wound cavity to do anything. the penetration is not enough to do anything. it starts yawing withing about 2" of ballistic gelatin. but, skin acts about the same as 2" of ballistic gelatin, so yawing starts almost immediately, if the round behaves as it should. this leaves a very shallow wound cavity that has very little chance of doing anything to effectively incapacitate any more than ball ammo. at least ball ammo will HIT a major organ. the only thing the 5.7 has going for it is the P90. in that case, with the tiny recoil, you can fire short bursts of like 6 rounds into the target, and place them all in just about the same area, creating quite a bit of damage. but, at that point, it still performs much worse than the 5.56 nato.

    the 5.7 would really only be good for rear echelon, who will likely never see any engagement at all. if they do see combat, it will be because the front was overrun. in order to overrun the entire front line, you need some pretty heavy personal armor. which is where the only other application of the current 5.7 round comes in: armor piercing.

    now, some companies, FN included, are trying to develop a 5.7 round that isn't AP, which would yaw later in the ballgame, and possibly make the 5.7 a contender. until then, it's useless for just about all of our possible scenarios.

    and snipers are also allowed to use HP rounds because with the HP comes a more stable flight, producing more accurate shots, which actually INCREASES the humane-ness of the round, because it's less likely to miss central mass, or the head, or whatever the sniper aims at. which means he's less likely to leave the guy bleeding to death in agony.

    oh, and i think certain aspects of the hague convention are retarded. no HP rounds? stupid.
     
  8. RockSteady

    RockSteady Guest

    In all fairness to the training of pistols. For the common Rifleman there is no need for training with a pistol as there is not one issued to them.

    The Slam fire is a known failure of almost all AR/Car/M-16 series weapons that recieve wear and tear abuse of a combat level. One of the combat manuevers that has the soldier slaming the butt of the rifle to the ground to assist his landing is no longer trained because of this. I guess the reason for not training that has not been adequately explained to newer soldiers.

    While the Barret is a lovely sniper weapon it is a nightmare to carry and setup unless supported by mobile units in an environment that your fallback position is not that far behind you or you have troops around you. Situation dictates equipment and inflexibility of equipment leads to death.

    While the M-9 is a reputible weapon there is the matter of acctual usage versus what would be best usage. If the equipment does not function well in the position it is then obviously it is a failure as issued equipment. This doesn't mean the equipment is bad it's just not fit for the position it is in.
     
  9. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    okay, so based on their ONE actual use with it, they, and you, have determined that it's good to go? i guess we'll just throw away all those FBI tests. the FBI isn't going to call a company that makes our military's weapons a liar, but they come just short of it. there is a reason that the FBI doesn't use the 5.7 cartridge. they didn't just test it for shits and giggles. they put it up against the other rounds out there. it does not penetrate like the article says it does. it fragments far too early to be effective from a pistol. from the P90, you might be better off, like i said, because you can just fire little strings of rounds into the target with minimal muzzle climb. this increased number of rounds acts as maybe two rounds from a normal service pistol with top-notch ammo. which brings up another point: you'll need all of those rounds to engage targets. you'll end up needing to use so many rounds per target that you will need extra mags. and whoever says that the gigantic capacity eliminates the need for backup mags is not to be listened to about anything else.

    if a mag fails, if you drop your weapon and the plastic mag breaks, if you have multiple adversaries. if you get into a shootout. if you miss. and who the hell wants 50 rounds weighing their rifle down? think about how heavy an AR is with just a 30 rounder in it. now just about double that. oh, and i want to know what kind of velocity it gets out of a pistol, because i wonder if it even yaws.
     
  10. insanity911

    insanity911 AHAHAHAHAH

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    Canada eh?
    give the soliders P90 and fivesevens
     
  11. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    The P90 rotating feed magazine arrangement has been prone to jamming from getting bumped around. Not really ideal for a serious service weapon.

    i'd have to have several thousand rounds of experience with one before i'd make a decision to use it.
     
  12. SS109

    SS109 3100 FPS OT Supporter

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    Pistols are given too much importance in the US Armed forces. A pistol should only be a last chance weapon. The M-4 is better in 99% of situations, including indoors.
     
  13. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    Too much importance? Not enough, i say. Most troops don't even carry them.

    Every combat rate should have a rifle and a sidearm. Of course, in a firefight, they're a last ditch weapon, but a soldier ought to have that last ditch!
     
  14. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    you're still giving too much credit to the 5.7 round. until extensive testing is done by more than FN, i'm going to listen to the FBI's tests. and i'm sure that the army, in its gigantic ongoing tests of uncountable rounds, has passed over the 5.7 as a good candidate for a reason. i doubt that they have failed to test it.
     

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