Job Dilema - Am I being unreasonable?

Discussion in 'OT Technology' started by Coottie, Dec 21, 2007.

  1. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    32,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC
    Background: graduated in May with CS degree and really high grades. I've also got 10 years of business experience (non-programming) where I was an officer for an oil company...not a big one...more small/med sized. This was before I went back to school.

    So, about 2 months ago, I started a new job as an Application Developer with a software company here in OKC. They have me learning their process from the ground up and I am supporting batch processing jobs.....not programming per se but I will have some.

    They told me about these batch jobs but said I'd also get to do a lot of programming with it. However, it's not looking like I'll be doing much programming because after I accepted the job, but before I started working there, they actually hired another guy as an App Dev also. He's now getting all the programming assignments and I'm not getting shit.

    So I'm kinda pissed but I also understand....he's got more XP than I do but he's not an OOP programmer. He came from the VB6 world. I however, learned all about OOP and did a lot of it in school.

    Am I making more out of this than I should?? Is it unreasonable for me to expect to get more programming assignments so soon after graduating?? I mean I built 3 different website projects while in school, all of them DB driven and 2 of them were very complex. The other noob hasn't done any of that...he's been supporting a desktop accounting application.

    I'm not sure if I should look for another job or not. The company, co-workers and pay are all about middle of the road. Not great but not shit either. Am I expecting too much too quickly??
     
  2. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    28,491
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Southern Oregon
    not sure what to tell ya man. I tried corporate america for a while and it pissed me off. I'm happier on my own.
     
  3. Dnepr

    Dnepr Guest

    Find another job, god knows there are alot of Software development jobs out there.

    check out www.dice.com, a very good website with just software development jobs.

    Also, to make yourself more marketable I would take a number of books and start learning them. There is a hell of alot more to OO then just polymorphism, inheritence, abstraction, and encapsulation ;) And they dont teach you that stuff in school as sad as it is =\

    Check out few books on design patterns and UML first then try to learn specific packages for your language of choice.

    What language have you chosen btw?
     
  4. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    32,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC
    Yeah I'd kinda forgotten what it's like in corporations. It's so much better when you're at or very near the top.

    I'm seriously thinking about starting my own business but I'm more than a little worried about the viability of finding work. It seems all the contract programming jobs I see require someone with 3-5 years of experience.

    I'm considering pursuing MS certs to lend credibility to my name but I haven't decided for sure. Right now....I'm evaluating options and also checking whether or not I'm being unreasonable in my expectations. I don't think I'm being unreasonable, I told them I wanted to code and when interviewing they made this batch processing sound like an important but not overwhelming part of my job duties. It was supposed to be like 50% of my time but it's 100% of it....and since we're growing I see no let up in that regard.
     
  5. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    32,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC
    Yeah thanks....for jobs here in Oklahoma City the pickins are kinda slim. I'm also considering a move to the Dallas market but man...I'd rather not move if at all possible. The problem is, there are nearly as many coding jobs here in OKC as there are in other places.
    Yeah this is what I've been focusing on lately....making myself more marketable. I know I have a lot to learn and that's one reason I took this job, it's a 100% MS shop and I thought it would be better for my career to focus on the MS tech, instead of PHP world. So now, I've got to get up to speed on a lot of this MS technology and I am learning but just not as quickly as they made it sound in the interview.

    The language I most want to learn right now is C#. I had 2 classes in Java and liked it and I wouldn't mind working as a Java programmer. But since I"m in the MS world right now, I thought I'd pour my efforts into C# and SQL Server.

    I'm thinking 2008 will be a very busy year for me. I'm thinking I really need to push myself hard to transition from a student level programmer to a professional developer but I'm not sure the best way to do this. I'm not afraid of hard work but I am having a bit of trouble focusing because everything is interesting to me. I seriously find all aspects of development interesting...hell I even think COBOL is interesting but I don't want to code in it all day.

    My mentor at work came from EDS when Ross Perot owned it. She was telling me all about her early post grad life, moving from company to company and all that she was learning. It sounded like it would be an ideal job for me...I tend to get bored when I'm stuck with a certain project for too long.....but that also depends on the project.

    Well I'd type more but time to head to work. thanks for the perspectives so far....keep them coming.
     
  6. tyrionlannister

    tyrionlannister New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2006
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    New York
    You don't need to quit this job to look for another one. Talk to your management and tell them you thought the job would involve more programming than you're currently doing. Make it sound like you want to be more valuable than you are already. Put out your resume if nothing changes, but keep working where you are. This way, you can afford to be selective about what you accept.
     
  7. trouphaz

    trouphaz New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,666
    Likes Received:
    0
    look, if you are right out of school, stick around a bit and at least use it to build up you resume. but don't just sit there, talk to your boss and say you want to do more.
     
  8. Dnepr

    Dnepr Guest

    :ugh: Did you even bother reading original post?
     
  9. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    32,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC
    Yeah, I guess what I was asking was is it unreasonable to not be programming having just been hired 2 months ago and not having a lot of programming experience outside of school?? Since I left a job where I was programming every day and really involved in the design of a new application, I guess not.

    And I know I don't have to quit to find another job. In fact, the idea of still getting a paycheck while interviewing is very appealing. The only trouble, wearing a suit to interviews...because we're casual at my current job (meaning jeans and golf type shirts).
    Yeah I talked to my mentor about it....but even she wants to program more. My main boss had a meeting with me and her last week. We're to write down everything the job requires then divide up the duties. There's very little, if any, programming on the list so far. All of this is in an effort to get her more freed up to help out with other things....meaning, I'm going to get to take more and more of this batch processing bullshit. Fuck that shit....I"m out bitches. :rofl: well....soon enough anyways.

    I've been thinking about this a lot this weekend and you know what....if, back when I accepted the job, I knew what I know now...I would have never left the old company. I never fully appreciated how nice it is when you genuinely like and respect your co-workers. Now that I'm in a company where that isn't present, I realize my mistake. Would be great if there were do over buttons in life huh? :)
     
  10. CompiledMonkey

    CompiledMonkey New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,528
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. It's important that you get into programming on a daily basis right out of school if that's your priority for the future. Your skills will fade away quicker than you gained them. So to continue learning you need to put them to use everyday. If you can't get that message through to your boss, then it might be time to find another job.

    It sounds like you're with a company where programming isn't high enough on the priority list. I would highly suggest finding a company that develops software products and joining their team. You'll benefit so much from watching and being a part of a team that builds product based software on a regular schedule. I've worked at a number of consulting companies and project based companies and now at a product company. The focus is always in the wrong direction with consulting. It's either about time or money, and time often equals money, so you see where that leads you. :) With a company that develops products, you'll find that time and money matter, but not at the expense of quality. Products need to be supported and evolved over time. So the company is obviously concerned about the next version with respect to what they're putting out today. They won't put out crap that isn't finished because they'll pay dearly for it in the near future. Customers won't buy their software if it sucks or they suck. And since products are generally much cheaper than a custom consulting project, the product company relies on that second, third, and forth purchase. Think Microsoft with Windows. Consulting companies don't care if you come back to them for a second project, they have your $100k from the first and that's fine. Not to mention that the client is pretty much stuck with the consulting company since they developed their fully custom application.

    Consulting/project based companies on the other hand don't really care about quality or the developer happiness as long as the time frame of each project is met. These projects are entirely time based. If you get Project A for $100k and it's set to last 6 months, it must go out the door on that final day. Otherwise, the consultants won't be working on Project B on that 6mo 1day mark, and the company is losing money. Nevermind that there is a major performance or security flaw in Project A. They don't have to support or worry about the project after it's been delivered. The business people in the consulting company have the money and the contract is so loose that they can argue back and forth while Project B begins on time. If they do decide a few weeks or months down the road to go back and fix Project A, they can, all while Project B rolls along and Project C's contract is being finalized. Get the picture? Oh, and one last note, the business people are setting the either completely random or client-set schedules for these projects. The developers don't get consulted to see how long a feature set would actually take. Because remember, it doesn't matter as long as it goes out the door on that final day, even in a slimmed down version. The client needs it and the consulting company can keep them happy with minor versions while they keep the other projects afloat.

    I've been doing this way too long... and I'm only 25... :noes:
     
  11. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    32,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC
    Thanks and yeah, I've noticed some skills have already packed their bags and moved on. :( Time to get up to speed again.

    Yeah see when I took this new job, I thought it was with a company that develops software applications....well for the most part. However, their mentality seems to be that of a consulting company. Sure they need to support their applications but they aren't going to invest the time in documentation/layout if they can avoid it....and so far they've been able to avoid it....for the most part.

    I dunno, I'm considering putting my resume in with MS and if they are interested moving to Redmond.....but I'm not sure how difficult it would be to get on with them. I don't know anyone there.

    I'm about 99% sure I need to move on from this company....because of what's in this thread and other things. But I'm not sure where to jump next.

    A friend told me today that I've already had 2 jobs in less than 6 months so I'm at risk of hurting my chances in the future. I dunno, I certainly don't want to get a rep as a job hopper but I really need to be banging out code daily.

    Anyways, thank for all your input. I appreciate the perspective.
     
  12. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    19,712
    Likes Received:
    0
    A couple of thoughts:

    1. You're getting paid to do whatever you're doing, which means whatever you're doing, it must be useful. That right there is two types of motivation: money and usefulness.

    2. If you really want to get all the good assignments, get a job at a company that's so small they can barely afford to pay you; they'll give you all their programming work, and if they hire more people you'll get to be the senior guy because chances are your boss won't know how to do what you do, and he'll need you to oversee implementation.
     
  13. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    32,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC
    Thanks but there's a downside to that also.....one can develop bad programming habits simply due to lack of knowledge. Then there's the whole, low pay issue. There's lots of money in the world today and many jobs pay very well for new hires....even if they have low experience levels.
     
  14. CompiledMonkey

    CompiledMonkey New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,528
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    I gave that a shot after I graduated and didn't get an offer. For reference, I'd say that everyone who knows me would say I was the best developer in my class at school. It's tough. Knowing someone won't help either. Your interview day is rather independent of a friend who can hook you up. I'd definitely give it a shot because the interview experience itself is worth the effort of applying.

    Psssh, it doesn't matter as much in IT. I'm on my 3rd job in 13 months. If you can help a company, they'll hire you. It's as simple as that. You can always explain to a company you're interviewing for that the job didn't turn out to be what was promised before you took it. Simply explain what you want to do daily and make sure they're aware up front.

    Good luck to you. :wavey:
     
  15. Dnepr

    Dnepr Guest


    Dont know anyone who got a MS job right out of college personally.

    I do have a few developer "friends" who work there right now and the interview they had to go through are atrocious. (Read and remember 10+ books) They say it was worth it though.
     
  16. CompiledMonkey

    CompiledMonkey New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,528
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    It definitely wasn't a walk in the park. I enjoyed the experience though.
     
  17. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    19,712
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't see how that's relevant. I assume you learned how to program properly in college, so while being a cog in a big, well-organized machine helps reinforce good coding habits, you should still have good coding habits already. If you don't, then you need to go back to school for a while.

    As for the low pay issue, I guess that all depends on whether you value sanity and free time more than the biggest possible paycheck, or vice-versa.
     
  18. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    32,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC
    Thanks man.

    I was telling this friend, the one who said 3 jobs in 6 months was too much, that I could explain both of these jumps. His response was, "If you have to explain them, you lose." I said, "WTF?? Nobody's perfect and there are very valid explanations." well perhaps they aren't valid...what do you guys think??
    I left job #1 because it was a PHP/Oracle shop and I thought it would be better for my career (long term) to move to a MS shop.
    I'm thinking of leaving job #2 because eventhough it's a MS shop, they aren't giving me any programming assignments. The reason, a key member of their team left a week after I accepted the job. So they hired another programmer to code and put me on supporting the exiting guys area...which isn't programming.

    They are truthful answers and I'd massage the wording a bit to make it flow. I just don't want to be "blacklisted" as a job hopper.....so it's good to hear that doesn't happen as quickly as my friend seems to think.

    And about the MS job, I'm thinking about it but I haven't decided to relocate yet. I dunno, it's hard for me to just up and move....even if my current job market isn't all that great.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2007
  19. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    32,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC
    I have good coding habits but we didn't only constructed 1 large project in school.

    I dunno, in my previous career, I worked for a small company and worked like crazy and became really successful. However, there were things that the major companies taught their employees that these employees then instituted at our smaller company....after we hired them of course. It would be nice to know those things but perhaps a bigger company just isn't in the cards for me right now. Who knows.
    Well there's something to be said for working for a smaller company but the pay usually isn't it. Certainly quality of life, benefits and other things come into the mix, not just salary.

    So while I don't necessarily need the biggest paycheck, it sure is nice when I've interviewed for larger companies and when discussing salary ranges, their bottom is much higher than my current salary.
     
  20. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    19,712
    Likes Received:
    0
    The reason for leaving Job #1 is kinda cheesy, because Oracle is a huge company and they have lots of customers, even if their software should be required to carry health warning labels.

    The reason for leaving Job #2 is perfectly valid; you're not doing the job you were hired to do, and the company isn't interested in fixing the problem.
     
  21. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    32,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC
    There's a little more to it than that....They were not a software company, they were a training company that needed software. They were a government contractor with a budget that was severely limited by congress vs new job was in private industry.

    Sure Oracle is a big company but given the opportunity to learn C#, SQL Server 2000 and 2005 at a dedicated software company seemed like a better career move....at least at the time it did. In hindsight...it wasn't.
    Exactly.
     
  22. CodeX

    CodeX Guest

    I just graduated about a month ago and I am working for a company called terahertz technologies doing embedded development. I have done more programming than anyone in the company for our current project, every single screen that the device displays was designed and implemented by me. I designed the interface between every external component on the board (dataflash chip, USB host controller chip, LCD display and graphics engine, digipots, etc). I can't imagine working as a software engineer without having a significant role in... software development

    My point is I would hate working as a software engineer without writing any code, because I love doing it, and it is why I got this degree to begin with. Money aside, I would try to find another job if I were you
     
  23. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    19,712
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, in reality, the reason for leaving both jobs is the same: neither job was taking your career in the direction you wanted to go, so you fulfilled your existing obligations and moved on....or if you haven't, it would be a good idea to do so; few things in business are more expensive than searching for a new employee, hiring him, having him leave before turning a profit, and making the company have to figure out what the fuck you were doing when you bailed so they can get someone else to finish it.

    In any event, you will need to be very careful about which companies you apply for jobs at, so you can say (believably) that you learned your lesson about making sure you know what you're signing up for, and you're ready to take a job you'll be happy with for a while.
     
  24. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    32,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC
    Thanks for the perspective and yeah...I hate it. If I decide to make a move to a different location, interviewing will be a challenge.
     
  25. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Messages:
    32,407
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    OKC
    Yep
    Absolutely. My first job I gave a month notice before leaving, this one, I'll just give 2 weeks....it just doesn't make sense not to do that.
    Few things are more expensive?? Well I disagree with that...in the oil business, 1/10 of drilling one well is equal to this cost...at the max and it's prolly like 1/100th. My first company profited or will profit mightily from my work....it was an accounting program and I was the only one with any accounting knowledge/degree. I left very detailed instructions, diagrams and to do lists. I've seen them since and they said my work was easy to follow and they should make their deadline.

    The 2nd company, well....fuck em. I feel like they pulled the ole bait n switch routine. From what I gather from my fellow employees, this position is a fucking revolving door. One guy quit after 1 day. Another one made it like 2 weeks. Hell I'm practically setting a record at 2 months.
    I'm supporting their fucking application not developing anything new. There's really nothing to figure out except where to find the next victim.
    Well I've thought about this also. Once I get a job that I like and I'm able to stay for awhile, I will prolly remove that first job from my resume.
     

Share This Page