JKidd and co.: explain this to me...

Discussion in 'Vaginarium' started by Falconer, May 23, 2007.

  1. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    (I deleted this in asylum and reposted it here since I posted it in the wrong forum)

    Alright, since I've been accused of backwards rationalizing things in order to support my beliefs, let me share a few experiences with you. Then I want your opinion/analysis/whatever.

    So the general opinion is that because I don't get chicks all the time, I'm bitter against those who can/do. I call them douchebags, fakes, etc., but it all stems from my inner insecurities and it's a defense mechanism.


    When I was in middle school/high school, I was always in the "middle" crowd. I wasn't a dork, but I wasn't hugely popular, either. I'll admit, I thought that most of the "popular" people were pretty much douchebags, and even back then I held the people that "fell" for their shit in contempt. That's probably not surprising for anyone familiar with my posts on here.

    One day I played a concert in front of most of the school (at the time I had played guitar for 5 or 6 years). Suddenly, out of fucking nowhere, I had "popular" chicks talking to me constantly, telling me how good I was, wanting to hang out, giving me tons of attention, wanting to fuck me, etc.. Now, we all know that chicks dig guys who play guitar. But because these chicks didn't even give me the time of day before the concert, I thought they were superficial bitches and I wanted nothing to do with them. "They want me now because they know I play guitar." Fuck them. That's not a reason to want someone. (PUA lingo: my awesome guitar skills triggered their attraction switches). The fact that they wanted me because my status was now elevated was a turnoff. They were disqualified on the basis of my logic.

    I had the opportunity to bang the popular chicks, and I didn't, because it was fucking bullshit.


    Fast forward to college. I was a bit cooler here (hey, I'm a cool guy). Aside from having an HB9 GF for 3.5 years (brilliant, fairly logical, gorgeous, and with an A+ bullshit detector), I had a slew of women who wanted to fuck me because of some perceived "status" I had. It was blatantly obvious to me why they wanted to be with me, and it was all fake bullshit. Am I the only guy who thinks this is a turnoff? As opposed to my GF, who would have been with me no matter what my status was, how cool I was, etc. That is a turn on.


    Fast forward to present day. I am a stingy bastard and I am good with money. I have no debt. I have a decent net worth for someone my age. I have had women, some of whom were very good-looking, upon finding this out, want to fuck me. Turn off. Where were they before? Exactly.

    People motivated by status turn me off. Even when it's me they're attracted to. Therefore, I do not think I am backwards rationalizing anything.

    People motivated by douchbaggy things like PUA tactics turn me off. I know people will say this is a defense mechanism of mine, but I'm telling you, I've been on the other side of the attraction before and I still think it's a turnoff.

    So tell me, what's wrong with me?

    Am I just a moral "holier-than-thou" bastard? Am I some kind of elitist fuck? Most PUAs would have a field day if they had attractive women throwing themselves at them, but when it happened to me, because I saw the reasoning behind it, it turned me off.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2007
  2. Chip Chipperson

    Chip Chipperson New Member

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    "PUA tactics" are "be funny, be interesting, be cool, don't give a fuck what other people think of you because you are adding value to people's lives, and be able to demonstrate all of this to a woman because that is what creates attraction."

    It is no more than that.

    And it is no less than that.

    Reread my posts on identity.

    You are not open to change. And that is ok, you don't have to be. but don't expect to change until you open yourself up to it.
     
  3. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    Then stop saying I'm bitter because I don't get opportunity with women.

    And I'm pretty sure I'm not backward rationalizing anything, altho I really do consider this every day because I see where you're coming from and you have made very good points.
     
  4. FloppyCock

    FloppyCock New Member

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    I think I missed something, but why are you assuming that something is wrong with you?
     
  5. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    Because I'm not at the level that I want to be at socially, and I can't figure out a way to do it without being a douchebag, which would make me feel like I'm selling out.
     
  6. Chip Chipperson

    Chip Chipperson New Member

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    You are wrongly grouping "douchebag" behaviors with attractive behaviors, I have no idea why. This is part of the reason I am always on your ass. You do not know how to read without your blinders on.


    "PUA tactics" are "be funny, be interesting, be cool, don't give a fuck what other people think of you because you are adding value to people's lives, and be able to demonstrate all of this to a woman because that is what creates attraction."

    It is no more than that.

    And it is no less than that.

    Reread my posts on identity.


    I don't fucking know how to say it any more clearly. I'm going to try to ween myself off of responding to you as often as I do because it is frustrating and bashing my head against the wall and a waste of my time.
     
  7. calisteph6

    calisteph6 Active Member

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    I look at the vag kind of like my friend's asshole boyfriend...sure, he might actually be a great guy, but since all she does is bitch about him too me I think he's an asshole and she should dump him. Sure, falc, you might not really be that bitter in real life, but since all you do is complain about women and think we're going to steal your money, it sure as hell sounds like it.
     
  8. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    So women happen to be attracted to douchebags. I'm back at the starting point. The difference is I'm not bitching and saying this shit because I'm jealous that I can't get laid. It kind of pisses me off... I don't want to go out and do that stuff, but it seems like that's the most successful way to get chicks. And I don't have a better alternative.

    I'm trying to have an open mind here. I really am. I've listened to your criticism/advice, and I've even agreed with some of it. But I keep coming back to the same two options:

    1. Continue doing what I've always done and get what I've always gotten

    or

    2. Do douchbaggy PUA shit and be better socially

    I spend a large part of most of my days at work speaking in front of groups of people (I teach .NET applications). I use this an as opportunity to test out various social techniques that I've learned here/read in books/whatever.

    Sometimes, I'll do something that I would consider lame/fake/BS/whatever, and I'll get a phenominal response from most of the group, and I'm like "you've got to be fucking kidding me." There's the middle of that bell curve. The people that don't respond either didn't get it (bottom 10%) or thought I was the one being a schmoozy douche (top 10%). Invariably, the "bottom 10%" usually end up not doing very well in the class, the 80% that respond well perform about average, and the person who thought I was being a douchebag usually picks up everything instantly.

    All my experiences, whether in my personal life or in a professional environment, serve to further confirm my previous experiences:

    - The majority of cynical people are extremely intelligent.

    - The majority of people who excel socially are of average intelligence (the best salesmen fall into this group, too). This supports the findings of other, large scale studies which basically concluded that the higher one's IQ (more accurately, the farther away one's IQ is from the statistical mean), the more difficulty they have assimilating into society.

    - The people at the bottom are not aware of these various classifications so they don't care.


    I must have some pretty fancy blinders on because everything, EVERYTHING I've experienced continues to further support my observations. This PUA stuff, the Mystery Method, etc., it's all effective. I'm not denying that. It's brilliant in structure and logical in presentation. However, it doesn't change the fundamental constructs of social interaction; it's just meant to exploit them. It doesn't change anything that I've observed. It's explained things... it's made me go "oh, so that's why that happened," but it hasn't changed anything. It's like discovering the cause of gravity... it explains why things fall when you drop them, but it doesn't change objective reality.

    Chicks are attracted to x, y, and z.

    PUA teaches you how to do x, y, and z.

    I'm getting off subject here.

    Anyway, I guess the thing I have to come to grips with is, regardless of the personal implications, do I want to do x, y, and z in order to be more successful socially? They're already laid out before my fucking eyes. I just can't shake this feeling of fakeness that makes me sick to my stomach every time I employ one of the techniques.

    Or maybe the key is for me to stop giving a shit about my progress socially... thus not selling myself out, and in the process becoming more confident about myself and therefore increasing attraction. That sounds easier said that done, because I am constantly aware of every possible little detail of any social interaction, and my brain processes everything everyone says/does constantly and formulates a new assessment of the situation on the fly. I know everyone does this, but the problem with me is that it's a conscious thought process, and for most people it's subconscious. And when I'm not getting the results I want, I shift into self-conscious what-is-wrong-with-me mode which makes things worse.
     
  9. Coottie

    Coottie BOOMER......SOONER OT Supporter

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    Perhaps you should define the bold, specifically.

    Sleeping with more women doesn't seem to be your goal so what is it then??
     
  10. fluentinsilence

    fluentinsilence New Member

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    This speaks volumes in your body language even if you're silent; it can be detected by both sexes, albeit more efficiently by females. Getting laid isn't the peak of the success pyramid, but since we're primarily talking about hooking up with chicks, that will be put aside for now.


    Since you're unhappy with current situations, that's obviously not the solution.

    Try and examine what type of girls you're wanting. If you're looking to primarily get laid regardless of who the chick is, then you're going to have to obviously be a lot more forward in your intentions and apply some of this so-called 'douchbaggy PUA shit' you bring up. But you're going into great detail about this, so I assume you're not one willing to drop a load onto every available chick's forehead. I agree with you on a lot of the points you make about the PUA shit; I dislike it because it seems too mechanized for me that I'd forget about trying to enjoy myself. However, a lot of girls respond to those behaviors and methods, so you have to ask whether or not the girls that respond to this are the type of girls you want to get with. You see what I am saying?

    That's great practice for public speaking and managerial (whether leading colleagues or being the leader in a group), but that won't always get you the social skills you need to apply in personable situations (i.e. every place outside these .NET teachings). You're going to have to put yourself out there and wrangle that loose noodle of a spine you have and straighten that shit out solid. Speak to everyone, even if you're not trying to get with them; I'm talking about the person behind the coffee counter, your barber, a person in line at the bank, everyone regardless of the awkward location/situation (be sure to note body language too; not everyone likes to be bothered, so you have to know when to just keep quiet, no sense in further bothering an already agitated person).

    Could you elaborate on this?

    Obviously, not everyone is going to respond to you all the same way; that just comes with the package of doing/saying this. I think I got some real biting wit sometimes when I jab with my colleagues and there is a small percentage of them that don't respond the way I'd like them to (if there is a sense of offense or discomfort, then of course I don't make such comments around them again unless it's the funny offense, then we're all fucking kidding around). But is this a big deal? Not in the slightest.


    I'm cynical as all hell and I do consider myself to have at least some degree of intelligence, but I think this is because cynics typically detect and respond to commonplace bullshit in the world more sharply. This is not to say of course that the uncynics (uncynics?) are not intelligent either. However, as with anything, there's a level between being a moderate cynic and a criticizing jackass.

    It depends largely on the audience you're being social with. I've seen some dumbass fucking rednecks light up a room like it was a fucking star. Obviously if you're a jokester type who makes dead baby jokes around pro-choice consertative types, you're not going to get the response you're looking for.


    Life is not a fucking a+b=c scenario. Shit changes all the time and you have to adapt with it (or not and crawl under a rock ignoring it forever). There's no manual for it (and if there is, the author should be drawn & quartered), no instruction book that reads like stereo instructions, none of that shit. This is what irritates me about this PUA bullshit, but as I said before, there is response to it, but are these the girls you're trying to go after?

    You're on the right track here but this thing about "being more confident" that people use makes it sound like there is a switch to it, which I don't believe in. Being confident is not having to say you are.

    A good piece of advice someone told me for those three words is "be as if you belong." Note I didn't say "act like..." because we're not talking about putting on a faux show here. Having confidence is formally knowing your abilities and/or improving them. You know how to speak well in front of others? That's confidence (the biggest fear among people is public speaking, so you have an edge here). You're skilled at a particular sport? That's confidence (especially when someone says you have no game; yeah, well, you know you do and whatever the fuck they say/said doesn't mean shit). Having confidence is not sweating the small shit. The world is not going to crumble under your feet and leave you alone if something doesn't go exactly your way. You just notice what the problem was and respond to it accordingly. It's the lazy fucks who just say "ah well" and accept the problem and do nothing about it that have the real issues.

    To end this schpiel, I'll basically sum up what I believe (it's up to you whether or not you want to believe it) in a few points:

    1. Quit overanalyzing and worrying about things not needing to be worried about. This includes being overly concerned over things that are out of your control and reach.
    2. Be more fun for yourself. This is about YOU. Find things you might enjoy doing, do more of the things you enjoy doing, always improve upon yourself and your duties, try something new, etc. When you experience new things, improve upon current ones, and enjoy yourself, it inherently speaks through your words, your body, your attitude, everything. You become an enjoyable person to be around and thus draw good attention to yourself.
    3. Make sure of your intentions (not only to yourself, but to others). You want to nail every willing vagina? Then attempt methods that seem to provide results, but apply them to your own style. It's "say it like this in your way," not "say it like this verbatim."
    4. What isn't working for you, immediately drop it or fix it. Why let the bad shit sour up more?
    5. Speak to everyone. Casual conversation, joking, wondering what the hell was in that player's mind during that game, doesn't matter the topic. And even if you're not trying to hook up with a chick, just simple jabs and flirting provides experience and practice for yourself (plus, it can be pretty damned enjoyable) and you might find out you could have a chance with that girl even if you didn't aspire to before you began to speak to them. Branch out, speak up.

    Just my bag of cents.
     
  11. Falconer stop making excuses and start living.
     
  12. Yail Bloor

    Yail Bloor OT Supporter

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    Falconer, I think your post highlights a lot of the reasons why I'm happy being a 31 year-old waiter with basically zero net worth and almost no possessions, and low status in the world.

    Because when someone does like me, its for who I am as a person, not for what I can provide them or what they can gain from my status.

    Its almost like you suffer from the "Howard Hughes" syndrome where he could never tell if someone actually cared about him, or if they were just trying to use him for their own gain.
     
  13. ArthurPewty

    ArthurPewty New Member

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    Hope you don't mind the unsolicited input. I only quoted the above paragraph because it seeme to be the crux of your issue for me. After reading your first message, I really don't understand what you want. You say that you are turned off by women who are only attracted to you because you because of things that you deem superficial, but you are also tempted to do things you deem superficial in order to attract women (which would be the very women you find unattractive). I get the sense that you don't like "the game" that most folks appear to you to be playing, but you are still motivated to play it. If the PUA techniques help you reel in certain women that you don't appreciate, then why would you use them?

    It seems like you have to choose what is most important "social status" (whatever that is really) or being true to yourself. If it's social status, then do the PUA thing. If not, well, that's the harder road. I'm personally not a cheery optimist that believes there's someone out there for everyone, but rather you have to take risks and work at relationships. However, if you focus too much on attracting the "right woman", that becomes an end in itself (sounds like it might have for you) and you stray from other things that make you happy.

    You mentioned the whole bell curve thing (I won't get into intelligence, because that's a whole other can of worms). However, thinking statistically may be helpful. You're saying that you "average women" (who fall for BS) don't appeal to you. Well, who do you think all those pick up artist guys tried their techniques on? If you want to improve your odds of meeting someone you'll enjoy (as opposed manipulating someone into being attracted to you), you need to think about what qualities you are looking for in a person, as well as what things you enjoy, and use that to figure out where to meet these folks or what might be a gesture/utterance that would signal to them that you aren't just another BS guy. Again, if you aren't looking for the "average woman" recall the bell curve and that 68% of the women out there would be "average" and another 16% would be "below average".

    Lastly, just wanted to ditto fluentinsilence's first two suggestions about relaxing (you can't force things anyway and at times need to go with the flow) and being yourself (which can admittedly be difficulty, though is a fun search in its own right).
     
  14. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    fluentinsilence, you misquoted me. Well, you didn't misquote me, but you bolded only part of my sentence thus changing the meaning.

    I said:

    The difference is I'm not bitching and saying this shit because I'm jealous that I can't get laid.

    You highlighted:

    The difference is I'm not bitching and saying this shit because I'm jealous that I can't get laid.

    And then replied as if I had said I'm jealous that I can't get laid. That was not what I said.

    Anyway...

    Yes.

    Like "Fake it til you make it?"


    Your 1-5 at the end. Good list.
     
  15. Falconer

    Falconer OT Supporter

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    What you said there is right. I think as I get into this more I get really confused about what I want/expect/should want/should expect.

    I was mostly interested in becoming better socially, because I really do feel uncomfortable most of the time, which lead to PUA, which got me into this mess :big grin: I guess I'm good when I teach classes/speak in front of people at work (I've gotten almost entirely good reviews), but I think I'm faking the confidence. Either that or I've just done it so much that I'm confident now (yes, I know that theory applies to pickup as well).
     
  16. BlazinBlazer Guy

    BlazinBlazer Guy Witness to The De-Evolution of Mankind.

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    Yep, that's your key issue, right there. Instead of "What-is-wrong-with-me" mode, you should be in "What-is-wrong-with-THEM" mode.
     
  17. weolracso

    weolracso OT Supporter

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    i think what everyone is trying to say is just be yourself.
     
  18. antihero

    antihero OT Supporter

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    too lazy for this shit. you have been told time and time again and you just dont get it.

    Your criteria for who is smart and who is dumb woefully inadequate. Your criteria for who is cool and who is a douchebag are incredibly shallow. you look for only what you expect to find and then act surprised when thats all you end up with.

    you take yourself to seriously. you classify things too easily and too rigidly based on a uselessly small number of criteria.

    the things you value over all else are worthless.

    Maybe the smartest guy in the room IS the guy who finishes last and is joking with the other "median" people. Being the cynical asshole who looks down on people for enjoying themselves instead of making ~80% of people they meet also enjoy themselves does not make you clever or smart. it makes you the typical cynical asshole guy who the normal people, be they smart, dumb or other think should lighten up. It's a damn .NET class, not a kidney transplant surgery.

    Almost everything in life is more important then the shit you bitch about. The fact that you think less of someone for making a room full of people smile and figure that the guy who is too much of a cynical wannabe hard ass to participate in such vapid banter cant possibly be a "bad person" is retarded.


    I personally encounter this all the time. People like you meet me and they think "big dumb party guy"... of course most people think "this guy is hilarious/ridiculous/the life of the party" but you are too cool to just admit that even if I may be doing something fairly mindless, that sort of positive energy brings a lot of positive things. I'm always dealing with your kind of people writing me off. Then later on ill use some ever so slightly above average vocabulary and they all :eek3: Why is it that nearly every girl with an above average vocabulary thinks that having an above average vocabulary is the hallmark of true greatness as well as genuine genius? :rolleyes: You should see the look on their faces when they realize I'm cognitively sharper then them AND surprisingly intellectually well rounded.

    you people are all the same. you think you have this fragile tiny core at the center of your being that is "who you really are" and that "everything else" is superficial. you have no idea why the girl who "liked you before" liked you. maybe they liked you cause you wore their favorite cologne, or reminded them of a camp counselor they had a crush on one summer. Just becuase you don't know what reasons a girl takes in interest in you for has nothing to do with the caliber of the things that make her take an interest in you or her caliber as a person.

    im getting fired up. if you were here i would be screaming in your face. you make so many fucked up assumptions it drives me insane.

    "The guy who finishes .net class first is the smartest."
    bullshit. you know its complete bullshit, but look how you built on top of it?

    the implication that your GF likes you for more sincere and deep reasons the the "other girls".

    no shit sherlock. The other girls know nothing about you. This is not because they are shallow and unobservant as you imply, its because there is no way they could know anything about you. Thats why the call it being "interested in someone" you don't know everything, but you want to find out. If you start talking about your hopes, fears, and dreams, and she yawns and asks you to get your guitar and play her the new nickleback song, then you having something to bitch about. In the meantime you keep on acting like the fact any girl who doesn't know you like your GF of 3.5 years but likes you is a shallow dumb bitch not worthy of you getting to know ANYTHING about her before tossing her.

    If the girls had given you the time of day before you played the guitar they might have only liked your eyes or or shirt. oh noes!
     
  19. antihero

    antihero OT Supporter

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    hell no. he is fucked up. He needs to work on who he is.
     
  20. bandwagon

    bandwagon Copy/Paste

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    How many times does it have to be said before you really understand?

    Attraction is not a choice (Of course they were attracted to you because of status... that's one of the things women are attracted to)

    Love women for what they are, not for what you want them to be (Throw away your ideas of how the ideal woman is and start loving the way they are different than men are. Enjoy their illogical behaviors, enjoy their bullshit tests, immerse yourself in their femmininity)

    If I were your mentor for a day, I would say that you need to go read 'The Way of the Superior Man' about 10 times.
     
  21. Guz200sx

    Guz200sx The man who does more than he is paid for will soo

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    :o I think i'm starting to get like that...
     
  22. Guz200sx

    Guz200sx The man who does more than he is paid for will soo

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    I'm confused over this....You supposely have (or had) awesome success with women but yet you have "low status in the world and zero worth???"
     
  23. antihero

    antihero OT Supporter

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    but hes got skill, and thats enough.
     
  24. Yail Bloor

    Yail Bloor OT Supporter

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    I don't have money and materialistic people view me has having low status (professionally).

    But I have high status with the people who know me well.
     
  25. Schecter1277

    Schecter1277 hi

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    I don't see why people who have a magnetic personality are turn-offs. Your paradigm insists that to be popular you must be a douche, which is entirely the opposite. Though, have you ever thought to consider why the unpopular kids are unpopular? Later on in life it's not because they are ugly.
     

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