GUN Is it legal to have a short barreled upper without it being attached to a lower?

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Hooligan, Aug 28, 2008.

  1. Hooligan

    Hooligan New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2004
    Messages:
    26,129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Because you could have an SBR if you wanted it. Kinda like I think it's illegal to own the parts to make a FA gun even if they aren't installed?
     
  2. Sailor Jerry

    Sailor Jerry OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    35,173
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Dirtona Beach
    You could always try and claim it's for a pistol you're planning on building. Maybe even pick up a pistol lower just in case.

    I've kinda been wondering how it works when you buy a short barrel. Do they ask for proof of SBR paperwork, or do they just go on the honor system?
     
  3. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    9,041
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Illinois
    I wouldn't have a short barreled upper and lower in the same house unless the lower was sbr'ed. (or unless you had a pistol lower). I don't know if my caution is justified or not.
     
  4. TwistedMind

    TwistedMind New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    10,608
    Likes Received:
    0
    well technicly the barrel by itself is just a piece of pipe until its attached to a firearm, however in the interests of not provoking the BATFE i probably wouldn't have one without a pistol or SBR lower just to CYOA
     
  5. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

    Joined:
    May 19, 2003
    Messages:
    38,942
    Likes Received:
    182
    Location:
    Cali-NO NFA-fornia
    im pretty sure you're justified. IIRC they can get you on constructive intent
     
  6. Hooligan

    Hooligan New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2004
    Messages:
    26,129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Okay, well what if you have a pistol built, but also a spare stock?
     
  7. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

    Joined:
    May 19, 2003
    Messages:
    38,942
    Likes Received:
    182
    Location:
    Cali-NO NFA-fornia
    if its marked a pistol, i *think* thats ok.

    i wouldnt press my luck with a plane jane lower and an SBR upper, though.
     
  8. xpinchx

    xpinchx hes got a nice cock, on the thin side but its stil

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    46,800
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    East Lansing, MI
    Why risk it?
     
  9. Hooligan

    Hooligan New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2004
    Messages:
    26,129
    Likes Received:
    0
    :hs: I dunno. I hate paying more to get less.

    Plus with moving around all the time in the AF it's hard to have NFA shit.
     
  10. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

    Joined:
    May 19, 2003
    Messages:
    38,942
    Likes Received:
    182
    Location:
    Cali-NO NFA-fornia
    how about this. do it, then you can be the test case for the rest of us? :h5:
     
  11. Initial E

    Initial E New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    3,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Georgia
    Technically NO it is not legal. Most people see it as "what if" you get caught type scenario.

    The ATF considers the possession of SBR uppers to individuals that do not have a stamp destructive intent. This is includes disassembled uppers in homes with AR15 lowers. Given the ATF's track record they'll fuck you anyway they can if you dont have a stamp.
     
  12. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    9,041
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Illinois
    Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is a prime example of why I say I'm not sure. I've not personally needed to check the legality for my own uses but everyone on the internet seems more than willing to ramble on with legal advice. Since the term often thrown about is constructive intent and you're saying destructive intent, I'm willing to bet you haven't actually dug down into the relevant laws either. No shame, you're trying to help and I'm not trying to single you out.

    My point is, don't trust the intarweb. We're all boobs. If there's a chance the atf is going to shoot your dog and burn your house for something you do, read the laws for yourself and be absolutely sure what you're being told is correct.
     
  13. xpinchx

    xpinchx hes got a nice cock, on the thin side but its stil

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    46,800
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    East Lansing, MI
    That said every day people make and own SBS, SBR, and illegal automatics. I have 3 friends that have auto sears in their ARs and a couple guys I know routinely modify their AKs to fire full auto. The fact is 95% of these people out there aren't ever going to run into trouble with the law just for owning these guns (i say this to forgo the fact that a lot of illegal machine guns are used in crimes) but you have to ask yourself if it's worth it to you. The consequences are serious if you get caught, and you're probably worse off being in the military.
     
  14. lobstradomus

    lobstradomus New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    6,291
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    CA
    According to the ATF's Firearm Questions and Answers pdf, possession of a pistol and the attachable shoulder stock to make it an SBR is illegal as it "constitute possession of an NFA firearm" (similar to the question you asked at least,) but the code sections they cited were only for definitions of SBR's, Pistols, AOW's, etc. and had nothing to do with intent or possession. Still, they think its illegal and if you are caught they would probably file charges which would cost you a shitload of money at the very least.
     
  15. T0nyGTSt

    T0nyGTSt New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    973
    Likes Received:
    0
    constructive intent?
     
  16. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    9,041
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Illinois
    As in you may not have something illegal assembled but you have the means to and no other legal use.

    http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...n+short+rifle+intent&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

    After finding that I say no, no, a thousand times, no :big grin:
     
  17. lobstradomus

    lobstradomus New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    6,291
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    CA
    I still haven't found anything specific to SBR's but I think I found where they could argue the constructive intent idea through spirit of the law and the US Code Title 26.e, Ch. 53.b, Part 1 § 5845 (which is identical to the Code of Federal Regulations Title 27 Section 479.11) definition of a machinegun:

     
  18. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    9,041
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Illinois
    In case the google cache link dies and because this is good discussion

    So this leads me to wonder then...if I have an ar lower thats on the 4473 as a rifle, and i've assembled it without a stock and buffer tube but with the grip/fcg/etc and have a regular upper in the house...is that an illegal ar pistol? It is capable of being fired (i assume at least) in that fashion even if only once. Probably a harder push to a jury but the way the atf screws people I wonder if a half finished lower would be safe to have laying around should you find yourself on the unlucky end of that stick one day.
     
  19. lobstradomus

    lobstradomus New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    6,291
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    CA
    I would imagine if the lower is shorter than the 10" required to fit the 26" OAL requirement it could be construed that way.
     
  20. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

    Joined:
    May 19, 2003
    Messages:
    38,942
    Likes Received:
    182
    Location:
    Cali-NO NFA-fornia
    from my understanding of what i've read in this thread: why chance it. probably better to wait until the paperwork is done on the lower before possessing the upper.

    amirite?
     
  21. Asses Maximus

    Asses Maximus Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Guns d

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2005
    Messages:
    15,148
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Between laziness and impatience

    No, they dont ask you. I ordered the 10.3" barrel for my PS90 with no questions asked. I did wait until I had the tax stamp in hand before I bought the barrel, because of all the ambiguity of constructive intent and such. I asked several people (never asked LEOs, they'd probably lie anyway) and none of them had the same answer.
     
  22. spankaveli

    spankaveli OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2002
    Messages:
    16,466
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    LA. State, not City.
    Only way I'd ever be in possession of an SBR upper is if I already had a registered lower.
     
  23. Hooligan

    Hooligan New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2004
    Messages:
    26,129
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know it's not worth it. :hs: The ATF is so fucking gay.
     
  24. JRMS

    JRMS Failing at life

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2006
    Messages:
    274
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Colorado
    When's the last time a BATFE agent came to insect your gun collection?
     
  25. Hooligan

    Hooligan New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2004
    Messages:
    26,129
    Likes Received:
    0
    Doesn't matter. My 20mm FA Vulcan cannon is worth more than a SBR.
     

Share This Page