LGBT I'm starting to think my brother might be gay.

Discussion in 'Lifestyle' started by deusexaethera, Dec 31, 2008.

  1. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    For various reasons, including but not limited to: pictures of dudes in bubble-baths playing with themselves, spanking it while watching a home-gym ad in a hotel room when he thought I was asleep, and...I can barely bring myself to say it...opinions about other guys' clothes. (He's also got more cute girls as friends than I ever did.) He's 16 now, ten years younger than I am. I keep reminding myself that it can take longer than that for sexual orientation to really solidify, especially if there's any doubt, and I did more than he has before I decided guys were not for me.

    Well, actually, it's more like I always knew guys were not for me, but play is play and when you're 14 and the girls can barely stand to be near you, what's a guy to do, right? (Funny thing is I grew up in Jerry Falwell's town, too.) That's why I'm still uncertain about which way he's heading; on the one hand, he goes to Catholic school and the girls are convinced that holding hands will get them pregnant (not really, but you get the idea), but on the other hand he's growing up in the age of free porn as far as the eye can see and he's still downloading pictures of naked guys. I'm also concerned that it might be some weird hormone-influenced need for male affection in the absence of my father, who lives hours away, and if there really is enough flexibility in his orientation for that to be an influence, I don't want it to continue in that direction.

    Obviously it's pretty clear I'd rather he didn't "turn out gay", assuming there is any flexibility at this point. I'm not angry about it -- people are who they are, and I don't believe in an elderly heterosexual male god, so I don't see a moral problem with it -- but I can't help but feel disappointed at the thought he might not end up with a wife and kids someday. My own life is not heading in that direction very fast, and I really didn't want to be the only one to continue propagating my family's good genetics.

    I'm not really sure where I'm going with this -- mostly venting, I suppose -- but I would be interested to get some professional opinions on whether I'm perceiving significance where there is none.
     
  2. TheMustafa

    TheMustafa hook 'em

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    please disregard both notions that there is "flexibility" in his sexuality that you could "influence" and that "daddy beat/touched/ignored him so now he's gay."

    they are both ignorant ideas not based in reality.
     
  3. dude101

    dude101 New Member

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    :ugh: for the bold parts

    i can say soo much more..but im not one to talk shit and i will prolly end up killing your "dreams"
     
  4. blaq19

    blaq19 New Member

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    Yeah, it sounds like he's going to be gay but just continue to love him and treat him like a normal human being.
     
  5. boeingair

    boeingair New Member

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    What would help your brother more than you trying to 'figure out' his sexual orientation (please notice italics) would be to position yourself as a safe person with whom he can talk about these things with, leaving your judgement at the door.
     
  6. Sam Gamgee

    Sam Gamgee Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right. OT Supporter

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    Two questions:

    Do you love your brother?
    Do you want your brother to be happy in his life?
     
  7. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    I think y'all missed the part where I said "I'm not angry about it -- people are who they are, and I don't believe in an elderly heterosexual male god, so I don't see a moral problem with it", and instead vented your own frustrations about however your families treated you when you told them. I'm not likely to bounce up and down and gush about how wonderful it is that he finally knows who he is, but I'm not going to kick his ass and never talk to him again, either.

    No, I'm not going to accept the notion that my brother's sexuality (probably still theoretical at this point) is set in stone, because I know from firsthand and secondhand experience that it isn't, at least not at his age. Human sexuality is as much psychological as it is physiological, and personally I think non-straights use the idea of predetermined sexuality as cop-out just as much as straights use the idea of chosen sexuality as a cop-out. I have several non-straight friends, and I've watched them take any number of different paths to get to where they are now:

    1. A guy I used to hang out with in my hometown is firmly convinced that he's straight, because he tried guys and it wasn't his cup of tea, but he's never actually been with a woman -- he's basically been celibate since he first concluded he's straight, because he hasn't been able to find one he's genuinely attracted to.

    2. A girl who used to live down the street from me says she knew ever since she was 4 or 5 that she was attracted to women (she used to look at Victoria's Secret mags during recess), but she only had boyfriends in high school. Her mother died of cancer ~10 years ago, and her father freaked out about having to "raise her right" all by himself, at which point she swore off guys and only had girlfriends until she went to college in Arizona. At that point she switched back to guys for a while, until she got involved with one who insisted on paying her (!) for her company, and she switched back to girls because she didn't like that one guy's cynicism. Last I checked, she now has both a girlfriend and a boyfriend, because as she says, "sometimes you just really need a dick."

    3. Another girl I went to college with is attracted to men, but she only has sex with women because she was molested as a child and can't stand to have a man touch her that way, but she doesn't want to have no sex life at all. She also makes good use of her vibrator collection, and has an astonishing collection of straight porn, but it's no-boys-allowed in real life.

    So I'm quite certain that human sexuality is not entirely predetermined, the same as any other part of someone's life is not entirely decided by their capabilities -- maybe genetics decide what a person can be attracted to, but they don't necessarily determine what a person is attracted to. And I know there really isn't anything I can do to influence that part of my brother's life, I just wonder what effects his upbringing has had within the envelope of what is possible for him. It's not a strange thing to worry about a kid's upbringing and its effect on his future; just replace "sexuality" with "career" and "gay/straight" with "engineer/artist" and anyone in the world would understand perfectly why I'm wondering about it -- obviously he's got certain innate preferences, but what he does with them is still anyone's guess.

    Anyway, it's probably best if he remains uncertain for the next couple of years, at least until he goes to college. He's in Catholic school now, and I can't really think of a place more unwelcoming to a budding homosexual (if that's really what he is) than a Catholic school in a religious town. Also, as soon as his grandmother finds out (if ever), I know for certain that she would go absolutely apeshit, and while my father used to tell me "if you think you're gay, get on with admitting it", I think he's just a little too Catholic to be thrilled at the idea. So while I and our parents would be accepting of that outcome, I don't exactly know how much support and encouragement there would be.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008
  8. geniks

    geniks king of the hill

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    I realized i was gay when i was 11.. and even before the age of 11 i had many signs of it, i just didn't understand it. I found myself jacking off to body building magazines all the time. I don't recall any "flexibility".. I look back to the age of 7 and i was getting a hard when my neighbor would wear tight clothing while he went biking... and i didn't even know what a boner was! I have a identical twin brother who is straight, we shared everything growing up.. practically lived the same lives.. When i was younger, I had NOBODY to talk to about my sexuality, even my own twin brother would make fun of gays and stuff.. I was very depressed and it was a rough time. You seem pretty open minded, I hope you are there to support your brother in every way possible. My highschool/ middleschool years were very hard and I had nobody to talk to, maybe you can help him.
     
  9. TheMustafa

    TheMustafa hook 'em

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    The problem is this paragraph:
    Your primary motivations are (1) that YOU dont want him gay, (2) that you will be disappointed that he wont have a wife and kids, and lead what you think is the stereotypical good life, and (3) that the family's "good genetics" (whatever the fuck that means) get propagated, as if we live in the 1600's and paternity matters anymore.

    not once did you mention that you want him to feel comfortable with himself in his own skin, or that you want him to be happy, or that you want him to be a good person and do good things in this world. frankly, the post is more about you than it is about your brother.


    edit - as far as the artist/engineer analogy goes, its exactly the same. you should be asking yourself "will my brother be happier as an artist or an engineer, and what can i do to support him in that endeavor?" instead of "my brother needs to be an engineer because i think it is a better career for him, even though he might be miserable"
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008
  10. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    Of course genetics matter. Do you really think it's pure bad luck that the incidence of genetic diseases (I'm not implying homosexuality is a disease, FYI) has been increasing right along with our ability to medically cope with those diseases? Nobody in my family has suffered or died from anything that wasn't directly linked to infection or the kind of food they ate -- no MS or CF or dystrophy or retardation or anything like that. I tend to think that's a good thing to propagate, in whatever small way I can.

    Yes, the post is more about me than it is about my brother. Considering I don't actually know what's going through his head, and I don't want to put him on the spot by asking him point-blank about it, I can't very well post about him, can I? I'm sorry, but this sort of thing does have a ripple effect, and among other things, I'm trying to make sense of how I'm going to be affected by it.

    As far as feeling comfortable in his own skin, I guess I kinda wrote that off as beyond my control (not that anything else is within my control). Either he'll be cool with himself or he won't; I'm not really sure what effect I can have on that.

    As it so happens, the analogy is accurate; he's currently split between architecture and 3D modeling for videogames. I'm presently encouraging him to pursue architecture, because it's the more technical of the two careers and so it gives him a wider range of options -- he can always choose to do 3D modeling instead, if that's what he really wants, but if he doesn't get the math and physics under his belt then architecture will never be an option for him. Why should I concern myself with degrees of happiness when I know that he would be more happy than unhappy doing either one? If happiness is the only thing that matters to him, then that's what he'll base his decision on, regardless of what I think.

    Anyway, that wasn't intended to be an analogy of the choice he has to make (assuming there is a choice at all), it was intended to be an analogy of the sort of thing an older person worries about regarding a younger person. When it comes to gay vs. straight, it's pretty obviously a happy vs. unhappy choice, not a more happy vs. less happy choice, so I'm not going to push him either way -- I'm just expressing my own desire that this turns out to be an experiment rather than a permanent, exclusive choice. That doesn't mean he'll stop being my brother if he doesn't choose the prize behind Door Number 1.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008
  11. TheMustafa

    TheMustafa hook 'em

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    (1) please provide evidence that "genetic disease," however you'd like to define that, is increasing. Does that include high cholesterol, which is completely genetic? no one in your family has high cholesterol, heart disease, diabetes, anything? these are all "genetic."
    (2) the notion that there is an "ideal genetic individual" or that one person is better than another due to genetics is also ignorant and not based in reality at all. please go take an evolution class, and then revisit the issue. the only thing that makes a species stronger is genetic diversity, not everyone conforming to an ideal genetic makeup.
    (3) even genes that do cause pathology in the homozygous state (2 recessive copies) can confer protection in the heterozygous state - for examples, african-americans who are carriers for sickle-cell are resistant to malaria. therefore, eugenics is completely bunk.

    overall, this whole paragraph is based on bullshit.

    Your original post:
    My brother might be gay because of x, y, and, of course, because he talks about clothes and, after all, we all know that gays are all little Versace wannabes.
    Maybe he's gay because there is no poon available, after all when i was growing up I messed around with guys (which is part of normal sexual development, btw). Or maybe its because my dad isnt around, and if thats the case we need to rectify that immediately.
    I really dont want him to be gay, and here are my purely selfish reasons.

    what do you want from people, especially in a gay forum? "Yeah, if your dad comes back in the picture, and if you take him to some strip clubs, he'll decide he likes pussy again." Obviously, thats stupid.

    right now, if your brother is gay, he's probably feeling isolated, alone, afraid of being rejected by family and friends, possibly in and out of denial, ashamed, constantly anxious and paranoid of being found out, and depressed. The suicide rate of male teenagers is 5 times higher than that of female teens already, and homosexual males are 3 times more likely than their straight counterparts to commit suicide.

    that being the reality of the situation, your entire post was about you and how you'll be affected by your brother choosing to have sex with dudes. maybe its because i've been through this, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for you because you're sitting here nitpicking the bullshit and trying to change him instead of just accepting, supporting, and loving your brother for who he is. If you think you can't have an affect on him feeling comfortable with himself, you're retarded.
     
  12. geniks

    geniks king of the hill

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    I heard left handed people are diseased and are less superior than right handed people.
     
  13. TheMustafa

    TheMustafa hook 'em

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    they are more prone to schizophrenia, so we should force them all to only use their right hands :ugh2:
     
  14. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    No, nobody in my family has high cholesterol or heart disease. My grandfather developed diabetes in his late 70's because his pancreas basically shut down due to age, but all he had to do to deal with that was eat sugar-free ice cream and use honey in his tea instead of sugar. He eventually died in his sleep. My grandmother died of colon cancer, which is strongly linked to excessive red meat intake -- she was 100% Irish, her father was a butcher, and she ate red meat with at least two meals a day her entire life. My grandfather's father died of bladder cancer, but that's because he used chewing tobacco for ~40 years and swallowed his spit. Nobody in my family, so far as I am aware, has ever been born with any sort of disease -- not even high blood pressure.

    I'm not advocating eugenics; I didn't say anything about artificial selection. However, natural selection has treated my family well, and I'd like to see that continue as much as it possibly can.

    The clothes thing was a joke, though I suppose I should've known better than to expect a minority to have any sense of humor about their collective selves. (Funny thing is, I can crack nigger jokes around black people and they laugh, at least down South -- but gay jokes, heavens no, you can't go there.)
    I knew I was going to get some of this shit. I'm sorry if you don't like the fact that not every single person on earth is totally cool with the way you are. Guess what? Not every single person on earth is totally cool with the way I am, either. However, I (and by extension, my brother) was raised to do what I thought was right and fuck everyone else -- likewise, my opinion has zero bearing on what you (or my brother) can do with your life, so carry on -- for what I'm sure are your own purely selfish reasons.

    Thanks for the reassurance about my own past. I didn't need it, because unlike some people I am cool with myself, but it's always good to know there's one less person who might want to hang me for it.

    ...then again, you do seem to want to hang me for the parts of myself that you don't already like, so maybe I shouldn't give you credit for your tolerance just yet.

    Objectivity and non-pussyhurtness would be nice. (see earlier comment about minorities.) I was asking about how much of what I've observed and concluded is accurate, and thus far only one person has actually responded -- and he's not even gay! Everyone else has just been taking the opportunity to cry about their own experiences and project the assholeness of their own family members on to me, as if I'm the one who's threatening to disown them for being who they are. That's neither accurate nor fair.

    Can you say with absolute certainty that it doesn't have any effect? I can say with absolute certainty that it does have an effect under certain circumstances, which I quoted, but you conveniently ignored those.

    I do accept, support, and love my brother for who he is. However, I don't think it's a good idea to force him into saying something he's not ready to say by asking him if he's gay instead of waiting for him to tell me. I do what I can to make it clear that I don't have any inherent bias against homosexuals -- though it does bug me how news companies always pick screaming faggots to interview about gay-rights issues, instead of a "normal gay" that you'd never notice if he didn't tell you -- and he's heard me gripe about that one before. As far as "gay people" complaints go, that's probably more helpful than anything, because it at least conveys the point that I know not all gays are screaming faggots and that most fit right into "normal society" like everyone else.

    I understand your point about how he might be feeling, and I do know what that's like because I was publicly ridiculed on a regular basis during my adolescence (for reasons other than my "normal development", but just as innate and instinctive), but I honestly don't know of any good way to help him with that other than listening to him when he talks to me and giving him straight answers in response.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008
  15. Naturally Baked

    Naturally Baked Active Member

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    I can guarentee you taking him to a strip club wont have any effect. Im 20 and have been to many strip clubs (straight) I was just there 2 days ago. And Im pretty sure I still enjoy dick.

    What you need to do is try to make it easy for your brother to have someone to count on, and know loves him no matter what. Let him know you are okay with homo's, and if you're not then you need to take some time and become okay with it.

    It is selfish to be disappointed in him for his sexuality, the only way he will ever truly love or be happy is to be himself, whether thats straight or gay, most likely gay in his case.

    Thats my .02 for now, I have to go out so ill read the rest of the responses later
     
  16. novo

    novo Pokey Man OT Supporter

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    deus, i'm having a hard time understanding what you are asking of us.

    if it's advice on how to understand what MAY be your brother's situation, mustafa has given it to you, but you didn't respond to it.

    this is what you should be considering if you are really interested in his well being.
     
  17. NOVAJock

    NOVAJock Modded & Underrated

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    Interesting thread.

    deus,

    Here's my theory on sexuality: Human sexuality is on a sliding scale. On one end is 100% heterosexuality, on the other end is 100% homosexuality and in the middle is bisexuality. Everyone falls somewhere on that scale based upon genetic and environmental influence.

    Human sexuality is comprised of physical and emotional attraction and the ability to build relationships with other people based on those two criteria.

    100% homosexuals are strictly attracted to those of the same sex both physically and emotionally. As you slide towards the realm of bisexuality, the physical and emotional draws towards the same sex begin to wane. Once you enter the bisexuality arena, you're able to develop relationships with both sexes that are based on only physical or both physical and emotional criteria. The same holds true for 100% heterosexuals as they start to slide towards bisexuality.

    Regardless of all of this, your brother's happiness is what truly is important here.

    While you may not agree with the physical sexual act that takes place between two people of the same sex, other than the plumbing being the same, the aspects of gay relationships are exactly the same as straight relationships.

    If you're brother is happy being with another male, both physically and emotionally, is that really so bad? If he discovers that in fact, he is gay, and decides to settle down with another man and build a life together, is that really so bad?

    If you really think about it, no...it isn't.

    I can understand your disappointment in the possibility that he won't have an engagement or a marriage to a woman, or build a family with the white picket fence....but he can become engaged and have a civil union with another male....and build a family and have the house with the white picket fence.

    It seems different or out of the ordinary in the straight community because everyone grows up being taught that it's all about a man and a woman. However it can happen between two men or two women.

    The dynamics really aren't all that different, and if your brother is truly happy on the path that life leads him on....then that's really all that matters. :o

    Don't be unhappy or disappointed because he's not following the path you would have expected him to. Instead, take comfort in the happiness that either path may bring him.
     
  18. Gay.

    Or at least experimenting with the idea of being gay. Probably gay though.

    Support him, don't make gay jokes in front of him, maybe even throw some homo-talk into a conversation and see how he reacts...like gay marriage or something if it ever comes up? :dunno:

    He's in a very very crappy part of his life right now and is probably depressed even if he doesn't show it. Being gay and knowing that you are going to "dissapoint" your parents/family when you eventually tell them, but not having told anyone yet, is a very scary place...depression, scared, angry, sad, suicide, "why me?", etc. are all thoughts and feelings going through him right now and you should just kind of stay by, ready to be there for him whenever he is ready to tell you. Honestly don't bring it up though...don't bring up the porn, or him wacking it to the gym ad :)rofl:) or anything like that...he will just deny all of it and it will ruin the bond and feelings of trust you have between each other.

    I think being gay is part you are "born" that way and part what happens in your life early on and as you develop into a person. More or less to one side or the other depending on each individual person. If he IS gay, there's nothing you can do to change it. He is gay, you can't change it, he can't change it. He could go on dating girls, going to a strip club, buy a badass truck :)hsugh:) but nothing is going to change the outcome. Don't try to force him one way or the other, just see what happens. If he ever does come out to you, try to sound as accepting as possible because if you say one negative thing and 99 positive things, he's only going to remember that one negative thing and feel horrible about it. Coming out is one of the hardest things a person can do really and the thought of suicide goes through many people's mind, so just remember that and act smart.
     
  19. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    I'm going to try again to put this to bed. I wouldn't be disappointed if he turns out to be gay, I would be disappointed that being gay almost certainly means he'd never have children. My worldview is one in which the world is a good or bad place directly according to the people living in it, and I think that good people should have children as a "duty", if you will, to make sure the world remains a good place to live. I think I'm a good person and I don't want my lineage to die with me. Likewise, I think my brother is a good person and I don't want his lineage (which is also largely my lineage) to die with him.
     
  20. NOVAJock

    NOVAJock Modded & Underrated

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    Two words: artificial insemination
     
  21. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    Then we are in agreement on the important points.

    His happiness is important, but as I stated previously, I don't think it's the only thing that's important. I think that the prosperity of the family is also important, which is the reason why I chose my highest-paying hobby to be my career. It's also the reason why I'm determined to have children.

    My grandparents had four children. Three of them had children, but none of them had more than two each. Of the six grandchildren, only two (me and one of my cousins) have expressed any interest in having children, and my cousin has chosen to raise a couple of special-needs kids from Zimbabwe instead of having her own. (I admire the effort, but it would be nice to have some nephews related to me too.) So it's been a couple of generations since my family has increased in size at all, and unless the other cousins step up and/or my brother turns out to like girls after all, it's going to be down to me and nobody else.

    So basically, my healthy, intelligent, creative family is in danger of dying out because they're all exclusively preoccupied with their own personal edification. To someone like me, who cares about such things, that is no small concern. I am bothered that nobody else seems to have any interest in making sure the family will still exist after 2050.

    I have done the physical sexual act that takes place between two people of the same sex -- all of the major ones, anyway. If I had a problem with it, I'd have a problem with myself, and I don't have a problem with myself. It's not the act or the lifestyle that bothers me, it's the big-picture implications of the choice, if in fact the choice is his to make.

    No, it's not inherently bad. For the third time.

    But not the children.

    The happiness is fine and good. It's just that this one particular fork in the road has a dead-end on one side.

    Yes, I have always been one to take the long view. Even when I was a little kid in grade school, I thought about things in terms of years and decades instead of days and weeks. And I am apparently the only one in the family who does so, which to me means I should use that skill to help the family in a way only I can -- this may not be a good example, but I can't help thinking about it anyway.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008
  22. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    I know that's a possibility, and I know that even if he turns out straight there's still no guarantee he'll have kids, but you gotta admit it's a lot more likely. I'm not concerned that he shares my interest in girls, and if he really wants to have kids someday he's got options, but shacking up with a wife pretty much lays out the entire framework for having children in a single shot, which makes it a lot easier to do so.

    Since I've already demonstrated I have a thinking problem: I can't help but wonder what effect it would have on someone to be raised by two guys, knowing that somewhere out there is their mother, who willingly bowed out of their life as soon as they were born. Not that I'm looking for even more speculation, but it's yet another thing floating around in my head now.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008
  23. deusexaethera

    deusexaethera OT Supporter

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    That's pretty much what I've been doing. It gets talked about whenever something comes up on the news. Proposition 8 sparked a good long conversation, or rather a Mormon-bashing by both him and me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008
  24. novo

    novo Pokey Man OT Supporter

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    have your kids. let him do his own thing. his life is not your responsibility.

    by having your own children, you have done all you can do.
     
  25. Sam Gamgee

    Sam Gamgee Every tool is a weapon if you hold it right. OT Supporter

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    deusexaethera , I don't think you answered my questions in the thread... at least I can't find the answers in the debate.
     

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