i have an 85 monte carlo ss

Discussion in 'OT Driven' started by holy diver, Dec 22, 2003.

  1. holy diver

    holy diver OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    24,148
    Likes Received:
    0
    and im going to drop a new engine, tranny, exhaust in it in the near future.

    should i stay stock (it came with a 305, right now it has a 400 that runs like shit :hs: ) or drop a better engine?

    what would you do?
     
  2. SoD

    SoD New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Messages:
    10,793
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    204
    Mmmm... awesome one of my fav cars... pics?
     
  3. Serialpimp

    Serialpimp Guest

    buy a car craft magazine,

    You can get a decent performing 350 for $2500 , and put it in,
    I would recomend you buy a crate engine from somewhere.
     
  4. uflathead

    uflathead Guest

    rebuild your 400, nothing beats cubic inches
     
  5. Demon Of Dreams

    Demon Of Dreams Feed me with lies and hate, and from that, I will

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    26,981
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Cruisin' Mos Espa
    I agree with the grumpy flathead guy...

    but then again...
    it depends on your budget...

    you'd probably be better off just buying a crate 350 from GM (Non-ZZ engine), buying a Demon 750 road demon carburetor and a better intake manifold and just call it good... put some full length hooker headers on there and call it good.

    No, it does not have forged internals, and yes it does already come with an intake...

    But it might be a better option than going through the 400 and building a better performing motor... Takes the guess work out at any rate.

    Before rebuilding the 400 it'd probably be a good idea to get it tanked and magnafluxed ... gets rid of all the crap you can't normally clean out, and will ensure a good block to rebuild instead of just wasting your time and finding out later.

    look through some catalogs (summit being a good one obviously) and price out the parts for what you need if you'll rebuild it, then compare it to what you'll pay for a crate engine and a few misc parts.


    you'll spend about $850 on small pieces alone. bolts, studs, gaskets, caps, bearings, new flex plate, windage tray, oil pump/shaft... assuming you go for quality parts. the ARP studs/bolts for an entire engine, flexplate/torque converter bolts, etc etc get spendy, but in my opinion, I wouldn't use anything else when going through an engine. (Nor would I not use a windage tray, or weld on the oil pump instead of just bolting it)

    depending on the heads, you'll pay anywhere from $600 for a pair of assembled quality aftermarket iron heads ($300 for bare), up to $1500 for assembled aluminum (as low as $800 for bare). I'd go with Pro Topline, they've got a bit better of a selection than AFR and cost about the same and perform a bit better.

    you can go budget forged by buying a summit kit... pistons, rods, and crank... not the highest of quality crank (although they ARE just repackaged large name cranks, but they're not like a scat crank, and will need to be ground down for bearings). the rods and pistons are JE pistons as far as I know, just repackaged for summit. They're roughly $900 for the kit, and you get to choose what compression you want... otherwise you'll spend closer to $1800 for a set of high quality pistons, rods, and crank. (then there is balancing to worry about)

    distributors are much of the same these days... best bet is a pertronix hei style with an MSD 6AL box. That's about $400 after all is said and done (with plugs and wires)

    Intake ... Edelbrock is the name brand, but Weiand and World have the same styles and may actually out perform anyway... so Weiand is a better bet for an air gap manifold. around $175-$200

    Oil Pan... deep pans are your friend, the more oil the better off you'll be... don't go cheap on it ... combined with the winage tray more oil + oil deflection from the crank is the best idea for you. $150-$200 there.

    Water Pump... $150-$200 for an aluminum... Edelbrock or other.

    Headers... $350, give or take, and Hooker for the brand, not much better out there for SBC's than Hooker, especially with the coated headers for another $150

    Carburetor... $400 or around that, Demon is my preference (nothing to do with my name however), its a quality carburetor and will put a Holley to shame, and absolutely shit all over an edelbrock. Edelbrocks have no top end and holleys are just second fiddle IMO.

    For a Camshaft... there are a lot of ways to go. Lowest priced will be a non-roller cam ($100-$175), with flat tappet lifters ($75-$100), and 1.5 roller rockers ($125)... higher priced and better performing will run you $250-400 for a full roller cam, pre-ground for less, but for a bit more, it can be ground to your specifications. Roller lifters will be about $200, and the 1.6 roller rockets in billet aluminum will run about $200-$250.

    Pushrods will have to be measured out, and are usually around $100-$125 depending on your setup

    Timing Gear is better than a timing belt/chain, however, they're not nearly as cheap, but they won't stretch and wear out (but are also a bit noisy). don't remember price on that.

    High flow fuel pump, $150 and just call it god
    Brackets you can keep stock or buy new ones, either works...

    the rest is sort of up to you

    That should more or less cover it I believe... did I miss anything? :o

    roughly for that... at minimum you'd be looking at around 5500 ... running and all..

    so it just depends on what you want to do...
    if you keep that 400 block... you could be looking at having a 450hp or higher engine depending on how you do things ...

    Course, if you want to go fuel injection, add $2500 to that and remove the cost for the intake and carburetor ... TPIS MiniRam2 is a damn good thing... but you'll need some high flow injectors


    Just food for thought.
    you could stroke and bore a 350 into a 383, and with that setup (with fuel injection), be pushing around 400-450 and have some power to squeeze out of it with a few changes in parts
     
  6. Serialpimp

    Serialpimp Guest

    crate engine
     
  7. holy diver

    holy diver OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    24,148
    Likes Received:
    0
    thats pretty much what i wanted :hs:

    anyone have links for reputable dealers?


    demon of dreams do you want to build it for me? :o
     
  8. Demon Of Dreams

    Demon Of Dreams Feed me with lies and hate, and from that, I will

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    26,981
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Cruisin' Mos Espa
    where you live? :o

    (I would if I had the tools and the area to do it, I don't think they'd let me do it in the living room :o )

    If you wanted to go even cheaper on the build it yourself... you could use non-arp bolts/studs, say screw the windage tray, leave the main caps as they are, get a non-forged crank, non-forged rods, hyperutectic pistons, cheaper and less performing carburetor, cheapie headers, etc etc... might save a grand or two... knock off even more for getting fully assembled iron heads instead of aluminum heads... just depends on what you want out of the motor


    for reputable dealers... your best bet is probably summitracing.com or salleechevrolet.com

    Edelbrock also sells crate engines, as does World, and bill mitchel's HardCore Engines...

    but the GM crate engines that are around 300-330hp go for around 2500 give or take, and all you need to do to perk them up is a decent manifold, carb, ignition and a decent exhaust and you're good to go... they're also setup for roller cams however they do not come with roller cams...

    Here is that engine in question
    http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=NAL-12486041

    while it is missing the things i mentioned, the ZZ4 comes with everything else...minus the carb... so it may be a better deal for $1000 more... nets you roughly 25hp/25tq more, and my recommendation would still be changing out the manifold for something better ($600 for a demon carb and a decent manifold) ... and you'd be looking at about 4200...



    So is that worth it to you?
    or is finding someone to build you an engine going to be a better deal when all is said and done...

    with a crate engine you don't have to worry about much, toss it in and go...

    with the engine being built up, you have more worries, will the block be good, will you go over a budget, etc...
     
  9. flyinbrian

    flyinbrian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    2,147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    G-body cars have more than enough room for a big block.
    Like said earlier, there is no replacement for displacement.
    Drop in a 468, 496, 502, 540 or bigger and forget about it.

    Easy swap.
     
  10. Moloko

    Moloko New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    12,469
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Slatington PA
    I would not go with the 400 small block again, the 383 is a better engine technically speaking. The closer you are to a 4'' bore with a small block the more efficient the burn of the ignition cycle is. A 400sb has a greater bore than 4'' and the burn does not complete quickly enough because it needs go spread accross the bore. By the time the burn completes the piston is already partially down the cylinder. With the 383 you get teh stroke of a 400 with the more ideal 4'' bore, and the 383 is considered to be the best all around small block chevy. It can also be built cheap. Here is a quick laydown;

    350 block - $579 new from GM

    383 Kit - about 1000 from jegs, includes crank, rods, pistons, flywheel/flexplate, balancer, etc.

    Vortec Heads - about 950 from Scoggin Dickey Chevrolet with high lift valve springs (up to .550 lift) and it includes all gaskets, bolts, and an intake (your choice of a few different ones)

    Appropriate Cam; Call cam companies to see what they recommend for the motor and your needs.

    Carb - Holley 770 street avenger or equal Edelbrock Thunder AVS carb.

    With a good cam that combo could put out around 450hp to the crank.

    As for a crate engine Check out Coast Performance and Golen's Engine Service. Also look into the GM Performance crate motors, as someone mentioned earlier.
     
  11. Demon Of Dreams

    Demon Of Dreams Feed me with lies and hate, and from that, I will

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    26,981
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Cruisin' Mos Espa
    from summit depending on manifold you can get the vortec pair for a bit less than that :o

    however you can by some even better quality and better performing Pro Topline or AFR heads and an intake for barely anything more than that if you're going to use iron heads...

    cam wise Lunati and nothing else, but thats because Harold who used to own Ultradyne now does their highend cams and will give you a damn good cam.

    as for carb, your choices = poo.

    Demon carb > *




    as for the guy who is mentioning big blocks...

    he's on a budget, a big block done properly is NOT for someone on a budget...


    obviously it'd be a great idea... but even if he were to go with a crate engine (i wouldn't) it'd still cost him a few thousand more than it'd cost him to do a smallblock...

    do a smallblock correctly and add some nitrous and you'll have everything you'd need for a lot of things...

    plus, for a monte carlo, a big block even with aluminum heads and very minimal accessories, is going to be a lot heavier than he'll want, which in turn will cause problems and more money, since he'll need new front springs, will more than likely have to get the tubular a-arms and use f-body front brakes and whatnot, as well as really having to beef up any transmission he finds unless its a TH400, which will need to be gone through anyway, then you have rearend, and other suspension to worry about so you don't tear the fucking car apart :o
     
  12. flyinbrian

    flyinbrian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    2,147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    The Edelbrock carb selection is perfect for a street car. They are great out of the box. I ran one for years without hassle.

    I now run a Demon, which is a great carb too, but I like the Edelbrock better for street applications. My application changed and the Holley style carb fit the needs better.

    It may cost him a bit more to do a crate big block, but after he adds nitrous on the smallblock, he's halfway there.

    He would have to do the rearend regardless small block or big block.
    TH400 is unnecessary. We ran a TH350 behind a 481 BBC in a 3300 lb 71 Nova that turned low tens all day. Never had a problem. This is a moot point as well, he has a weak stock transmission that needs replaced anyway.

    All of the front end upgrades are totally unneeded for a big block swap too. Get a set of springs and call it DONE!
    He said he wasn't into turning anyway. Not like it would make much of a difference with the big block over a small block. His car is a 3400+ lb G-body, not the SCCA auto-X flagship by any means.
    Funny thing is, a good friend of mine did this swap into a 79 Malibu, same everything as the Monte, (G-Body). He took it to a local SCCA auto-x a couple of times and won his class. The best part was watching the crowd stare in amazement at this guy drifting out of every turn and smoking the tires the entire length of the straights.

    We're only talking about adding 200 lbs at best.

    Tubular A-arms and F-body brakes? Why?
     
  13. Demon Of Dreams

    Demon Of Dreams Feed me with lies and hate, and from that, I will

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    26,981
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Cruisin' Mos Espa
    Demon Jr and Road Demon carbs are still better for every day driving than the Edelbrocks as far as I'm concerned

    It also depends on how he decides to do the engine... he can do a budget minded small block built for nitrous for a lot less than he could do a budget minded big block for anything...

    I wouldn't run anything less than a TH400 but thats me, I've seen far too many properly built TH350's fail behind small blocks, I wouldn't want to put them up against a bigblock for too long, especially not for daily driving

    I say do the front end modifications because with the added power and weight, the F-Body brakes because even for daily driving, he's going to want something a bit more effective... I'd do the front end shit even if it were a smallblock just for the stopping power alone... but I'd not consider a bigblock unless I were doing that, period. (and the only way to use the brakes are the a-arms.... its a much better setup overall and allows for better adjustment than the stock a-arms allow)


    I'm thinking this for daily driver needs, nothing like dragracing or auto-x or any of that...

    this is what I personally would do, to ensure a safe car and something fairly reliable over all...

    I've researched the g-body close enough to realize that by now...


    however, I'd probably go one step further and say "yanno, I'm going to make my own clutch setup and put a Tremec TKO in it" ... why?

    because thats the kind of shit I like :)
     
  14. flyinbrian

    flyinbrian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    2,147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    Nothing wrong with doing any of that stuff.

    I ask why, because it is not a must do modification and you are adding unneeded expense to his swap.

    I have personally done this to two G-body cars now, both used for daily driving and frequent bracket racing., (driven to the track).
    One ran consistent 12.40's through the exhaust on street tires. The other was a tad slower. Then added nitrous, slicks, uncapped exhaust and ran high 10's. I am talking from hands on experience. Did the small block thing for a while, swapped it for a lower revving, higher torque, more streetable big block.

    I also commend you for setting something up to stop safely before you throw tons of horsepower at it, but the Monte Carlo's brakes are plenty sufficient to stop the BBC safely. I've done it.

    Nothing against the small block build up, just giving him another option that has more potential. There is no replacement for displacement.

    I personally now run a small block, but that was all I could fit in between my shock towers at the time of the engine build.
    P.S., I also now run tubular a-arms, four piston billet Wilwood brakes, and tons more overkill. Not necessary, but it's the way I do things too. (Not a G-body car and sees very limited street use.)
     
  15. flyinbrian

    flyinbrian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    2,147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
  16. TriShield

    TriShield Super Moderator® Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2001
    Messages:
    132,732
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Location:
    PRESIDENTIAL TOWER, GREAT AGAIN, NY
    I sometimes long to own a large displacement V8 G-body in addition to my turbo V6 G-body.

    An '87, '88 Oldsmobile 442 with a Olds 455 swap. :cool:
     
  17. Demon Of Dreams

    Demon Of Dreams Feed me with lies and hate, and from that, I will

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    26,981
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Cruisin' Mos Espa
    If I get a G-Body for a daily driver here in TX, a big block will be in the works for it even if i've got to put it together in the apartment and wheel it out :rofl: :o


    I had a nice picture of a 468 drag Monte ...
     
  18. Demon Of Dreams

    Demon Of Dreams Feed me with lies and hate, and from that, I will

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    26,981
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Cruisin' Mos Espa
    [​IMG]
    and that would be it :o
     
  19. Moloko

    Moloko New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    12,469
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Slatington PA
    The vortec heads are still tought to beat for the price. For 950 bucks you get both heads with upgraded valves springs and retainers, an intake of your choice that matches up to the heads, head gaskets, intake gaskets, rockers, and all bolts required. In Summit/Jegs they are $259.99 each, and those are the standard heads which still need the valve spring upgrade if you plan on running more than .450 or so lift on your cam. The vortecs also flow excellent until 5500-6000 rpm, and if you build the motor to rev within those limits, you'll have a great performer.
     

Share This Page