GUN I have a C&R and a friend wants me to buy him a CZ-82 for Xmas. is that legal?

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by cent, Oct 22, 2008.

  1. cent

    cent New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have a valid C&R FFL and 10+ round pistols are legal to own in our state. A friend of mine about 20 minutes away, wants me to buy him a CZ-82 for christmas. He could get his own C&R License, but he'd just lazy. His record is clear, never a felon, he works for Boeing as a Flight Simulator Technician on a national guard air base, and retired from the navy 3 years ago, and still has valid security clearances. So can I buy a CZ-82 from an online retailer in my name using my C&R FFL and then turn right around and use the desposition section in my bound book to put in his name, address, DOB, and drivers license #? I thought the ATF frowned on people doing that.
     
  2. more off

    more off Moderator

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    71,662
    Likes Received:
    24
    Location:
    Tacoma
    it's not like you're doing it everyday or anything

    i dont know the law, but i wouldn't be too worried :dunno:
     
  3. GlobeGuy

    GlobeGuy New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,974
    Likes Received:
    0
    If your friend wanted you to get him a gun for xmas and you do that, I'm pretty sure ATF will file that under straw purchase. If you just get him a gun for xmas (without him asking for it) then that's gift and you are off of any legal hook.
     
  4. chakup

    chakup Guest

    I think the 2 questionables that I don't know the answer to are 1) him asking for it and 2) you having a C&R.

    I don't believe buying a person who can legally own a gun a gun as a gift is illegal- but him asking you to becomes questionable imho.
     
  5. xpinchx

    xpinchx hes got a nice cock, on the thin side but its stil

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    46,800
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    East Lansing, MI
    You could always just buy it and register it in your name, then write up a bill of sale and just give it to him and it would be considered a FTF sale.
     
  6. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    9,041
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Illinois
    Not at all, your c&r is not a license for you to be a gun dealer for your friends. I imagine the odds of being caught and successfully prosecuted are slim but it only costs $20-30 to complete a legal transaction at a dealer. The ATF shooting your dog will be like $500 alone.
     
  7. SNDP

    SNDP New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2007
    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Zion
    illegal, good way to go to jail.
     
  8. vwpilot

    vwpilot New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2005
    Messages:
    1,596
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah, why mess with it.

    Just buy the gun and register it. Then do a FTF sale to him if you're allowed in your state.
     
  9. cantankerously

    cantankerously Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2004
    Messages:
    61,519
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    South Carolina
    That's still considered a straw purchase.
     
  10. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington nunc fortunatus sum

    Joined:
    May 6, 2001
    Messages:
    147,893
    Likes Received:
    209
    Location:
    The Residency, Lucknow
    :rofl:

    edit: I'm not laughing at you, J, I'm just laughing because the solution to avoiding a straw purchase is not a straw purchase :o
     
  11. thegooch

    thegooch OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    15,568
    Likes Received:
    39
    If you buy it log it into your book as you buying it and then resell it to him it and log it out of your book to him it isn't illegal. Now if you were to do this 10 or 20 times it would be illegal, but a one time sale isn't like your acting as a firearms dealer.
     
  12. Keesh

    Keesh New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,333
    Likes Received:
    0
    How are you not acting like a firearms dealer when your friend asks you to order something, he can't have legally transfered to himself :hsugh:?

    Just tell your friend to pay the $30 to get his C&R.
     
  13. thegooch

    thegooch OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    15,568
    Likes Received:
    39
    That's perfectly legal


    Per ATF Publication 5300.4 Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide

    Pg. 166 Section 15 Paragraph 4

    Straw Purchases


    "When a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above example, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mrs. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473. The use of gift certificates woul also not fall within the category of straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer's records"
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2008
  14. thegooch

    thegooch OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    15,568
    Likes Received:
    39
    That part of him asking you to do so is where it become questionable. I can't find anything that says that it is or isn't legal.
     
  15. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington nunc fortunatus sum

    Joined:
    May 6, 2001
    Messages:
    147,893
    Likes Received:
    209
    Location:
    The Residency, Lucknow
    That's a gift though, which is different than acting as someone's personal FFL (that is, you get paid).

    This is all hyper theoretical, though, because there is essentially no way to enforce this on a one-off or limited basis.

    "Hello, this is the ATF, yes? Sure, I bought the pistol, I shot it, didn't like it, and sold it to a friend."

    How on earth do you investigate/prosecute that? You can't, really, unless you log it in and out a day or two apart.
     
  16. cent

    cent New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    0
    i thought it was only a straw purchase if the recipient couldn't legally own a firearm. my friend can legally own firearms, he's just too cheap and lazy to get a C&R or go to a gun shop.
     
  17. thegooch

    thegooch OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    15,568
    Likes Received:
    39

    From the same section of the ATF publication

    15. STRAW PURCHASES
    Questions have arisen concerning the
    lawfulness of firearms purchases from
    licensees by persons who use a "straw
    purchaser" (another person) to acquire
    the firearms. Specifically, the actual
    buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute
    the Form 4473 purporting to show
    that the straw purchaser is the actual
    purchaser of the firearm. In some instances,
    a straw purchaser is used because
    the actual purchaser is prohibited
    from acquiring the firearm. That is to
    say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is
    within one of the other prohibited categories
    of persons who may not lawfully
    acquire firearms or is a resident of a
    State other than that in which the licensee's
    business premises is located.
    Because of his or her disability, the person
    uses a straw purchaser who is not
    prohibited from purchasing a firearm
    from the licensee. In other instances,

    neither the straw purchaser nor the actual
    purchaser is prohibited from acquiring
    the firearm.
    In both instances, the straw purchaser
    violates Federal law by making
    false statements on Form 4473 to the
    licensee with respect to the identity of
    the actual purchaser of the firearm, as
    well as the actual purchaser's residence
    address and date of birth. The actual
    purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser
    to acquire a firearm has unlawfully
    aided and abetted or caused the
    making of the false statements. The
    licensee selling the firearm under these
    circumstances also violates Federal law
    if the licensee is aware of the false
    statements on the form. It is immaterial
    that the actual purchaser and the straw
    purchaser are residents of the State in
    which the licensee's business premises
    is located, are not prohibited from receiving
    or possessing firearms, and
    could have lawfully purchased firearms
    from the licensee.
    An example of an illegal straw purchase
    is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
    Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
    Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
    money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
    out Form 4473, he violates the law by
    falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
    of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
    the law because he has unlawfully aided
    and abetted or caused the making of
    false statements on the form.
     
  18. thegooch

    thegooch OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    15,568
    Likes Received:
    39
    Now buy that definition if he was buying the gun for a friend and he filled out a 4473 it's illegal. But since he has a C&R and does not need to fill out a 4473 for it, in the same instance is that illegal? I wouldn't do it personally, but I would think that if he bought it logged it into his book and then say sold it a week or two later it would be fine.

    "Hello, this is the ATF, yes? Sure, I bought the pistol, I shot it, didn't like it, and sold it to a friend."

    How on earth do you investigate/prosecute that? You can't, really, unless you log it in and out a day or two apart.


    I'd say it's more a question of morality than legality
     
  19. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington nunc fortunatus sum

    Joined:
    May 6, 2001
    Messages:
    147,893
    Likes Received:
    209
    Location:
    The Residency, Lucknow
    Form 4473 is for over the counter purchases from an 01.

    The concept is the same, in any event. If you can just evade a licensing requirement comlpetely by having your friend/cousin/neighbor aquire all your firearms, the whole point of the licensing system evaporates.
     
  20. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington nunc fortunatus sum

    Joined:
    May 6, 2001
    Messages:
    147,893
    Likes Received:
    209
    Location:
    The Residency, Lucknow
    Can I give away C&R Firearms I acquire as gifts?
    Yes, you can gift away rifles acquired with your C&R. However, ATF isn't stupid —they can tell if you are buying guns for other people on your license … DO NOT purchase firearms with the specific intent of giving them away or selling to someone else. The ATF will see this as a “straw purchase”. Should you ever be inspected, ATF will take notice that you only had it for a day or two. If you've done this more than once, it will raise eyebrows.
    Please do not use your license for this purpose. It does damage to us all.

    http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html
     
  21. sp00n155

    sp00n155 You underestimate the insignificance of my penis OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2006
    Messages:
    10,301
    Likes Received:
    125
    Location:
    Huntsville, AL
    buy now, transfer around Christmas time. shouldn't cause a problem.
     
  22. Milky

    Milky I'm in your Millenium Falcon, rumbling your Wookie

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2004
    Messages:
    3,067
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Mississippi State
    I think if you buy 2, and kept the best then it is legal for a C&R since you are improving your collection.
     
  23. TwistedMind

    TwistedMind New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    10,608
    Likes Received:
    0
    is your friend giving you the money to buy the gun, or are you buying the gun with your money and giving it to your friend as a gift?

    If hes giving you the money its a straw purchase, if he requested a specific firearm as a present and you obliged and bought the firearm for him and gave it as a gift it is not a straw purchase.

    Thats my understanding of the law.

    I am not an attourney and nothing in this post is to be construed as legal advice.
     
  24. cent

    cent New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    563
    Likes Received:
    0
    i'd be using my own money to purchase it. he has not given me any money.
     
  25. thegooch

    thegooch OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    15,568
    Likes Received:
    39

    Do you plan on having him pay you back?
     

Share This Page