GUN I has new gun. v. everyone should have one

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by AustinL911, Nov 3, 2007.

  1. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    On sale for $189.99. So cheap everyone should have one.

    I immediately put 28rd. through it, and it shoots perfectly as far as I can tell. Sights are great. Accuracy seemed pretty damn good. Feels great in my hands. And it seems very well made for the monies. My only gripe is that I wish they could have squeezed a 9mm in there instead of the .380, but, I digress. Nothing a reloading setup can't fix. So, go get one. :bowdown:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  2. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    And yes, my camera sucks.
     
  3. Aequitas

    Aequitas If it keeps on raining, levee's going to break.

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    Where are they on sale?
     
  4. KIDRR

    KIDRR Duck dog>* OT Supporter

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    I've been wanting to pick one of those up for a while. Everything I read on them says they're solid.
     
  5. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    Vance's shooters supply in Columbus, Ohio. :bigthumb:

    Been on sale for a month now, but sadly, the sale ended today. :sadwavey:

    Got it last night.
     
  6. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

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    how would that compare to a .380ACP Walther PPK?
     
  7. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    Never shot a PPK, and didn't look into them before buying this. $556 MSRP for the .380 PPK.......:eek3:
     
  8. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    Perhaps for ammo prices, but not if you have to shoot someone. I'd buy a 9mm in that size personally. Glad you like it though, the owners of them seem quite happy with them.
     
  9. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    Could loading a hot .380rd. get you anywhere close to the effectivness of a factory 9mm load/ballistics?
     
  10. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    Just cracked open my 'Ammo & Ballistics 3rd ed.' book due to my curiousity between the two rounds (380 vs. 9mm).

    Now, I don't know how you'd measure and classify a bullets effective to kill something. But, I'm gonna go with the books explanation.

    They have a specification for every round called the Taylor KO (knock-out) factor. I'm gonna use it for my comparison. I suppose you could also use ft.-lbs. of energy as a measurement too, if that is your school of thought. Though, I'd guess that's throwing out expansion, permanant cavity, temp. cavity, and other things like that.

    The largest .380 KO factor I could find was a rating of 4.8
    The largest 9mm KO factor I could find was a rating of 8.2

    That's almost a 71% difference.


    Now, if you used energy as your measurment, the largest measurement I could find for each round was:

    -246 ft-lbs for the .380acp
    -483 ft-lbs for the 9mm

    That's a difference of about 96%

    So, according to those, the 9mm is MUCH more effective, leaving out all other factors. Seeing this, I don't think custom tailored 'hot' rounds would equal factory 9mm performance.
     
  11. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

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    yes.

    edit: i found some site that showed ballistic data for .380ACP the other night, trying to find again

    edit 2: here it is: http://stevespages.com/page8f380acp.html they have a lot of other tests, too
     
  12. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

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    i just added up all the penetration depths for .380ACP vs. those of 9mm based on the numbers from that site:

    the average depth for .380acp was 15.3 inches
    the average depth for 9mm was 16.9 inches

    thats a little more than 1.5" difference; and there were about 58 samples for 9mm and only 18 for .380

    :dunno:
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2007
  13. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    Wikipedia is my friend. I decided to find out exactly what a '+p' or '+p+' round was so I googled it. Now, I knew that +p rounds were basically hot rounds, but I was trying to find out when a normal round becomes a +p round. I stumbled upon this during my research:

    -9mm-
    Standard pressure = 35,000
    +P = 38,500
    10% increase

    -.380-
    Standard Pressure = 26,500
    +P = 33,500
    25% increase to make .38 super

    So, it appears you can get pretty close to atleast the opperating pressure of a 9mm round with a .380+p. Bullet weight being the same, I'd say it's possible.
     
  14. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

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    :werd: if you chose to utilize .380 as a defensive round, you'd HAVE to shoot +P
     
  15. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    While I think judging rounds by the taylor whatever it was or kinetic energy isn't right, we do arrive at similar conclusions.

    While shooting water jugs is fun, I'd encourage you to look at some tests from properly calibrated gel. You can't get reliable expansion and sufficient penetration in .380, you have to pick one or the other.

    Saami is the organization that sets the acceptable pressures for rounds. Not every caliber has a +P specification. There is no such specification for .380 acp, its just .380 acp, thats it. Anything other than .380 acp (38 auto) is a different round, including .38 super. The only maximum pressure for it is 26.5k psi, 33,500 would not be wise.

    And I'm not crapping all over .380, I think its a pretty poor performer for self defense, a 9mm is quite an improvement, there are just some place where there isn't a 9mm gun of quite the same size. I have a keltec p3at because even though its just a 380, its quite small and easy to hide. I keep it loaded with fmj rounds for sufficient penetration. I would encourage you to read this when you have some time, you might find it interesting http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2007
  16. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    Found a couple manufacturers that claim their 380 rounds are +p. Not sure if they're just saying that to hype their product or if it's actually loaded to overpressure.

    Also, we all know that Wiki isn't 100% reliable. I think what they were saying by 380 +p being .38super, is that the pressure of the 380+p was slightly higher than the standard pressure .38super. [​IMG]

    Though I would fully agree that 9mm is the far superior round. I'm mostly doing this bit of research because I'm bored and can't fall asleep. :rofl: I was just curious if you could get a 380 loaded close to what factory 9mm is.

    And I have absolutely no problem with reading your opinion or others on this board. That's what I'm here for. Though I should mention, I won't be using this as a defensive weapon. Maybe as a BUG, but highly unlikely. If I were to choose a 380 for a BUG, it would be a P3AT.

    As I said in another recent thread; I don't always buy guns with a specific purpose or job in mind for it. I buy them because I like them. I liked this one, so I bought it. No other reason for doing it but that. :wavey:


    :bigthumb:
     
  17. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    Who knows, if the round actually has a +P you know what you're getting. If there isn't a +P it becomes a question of if you trust them enough to have made a higher pressure round that will be able to be fired safely in your gun even though it wasn't designed for that pressure? I believe there might be someone that is selling a .380 round and calling it extra hot and its known for blowing up keltecs.

    There is no such thing as .380 +p. it doesn't exist. 9mm +P is a max of 38.5k psi, always and forever. If I'm selling .380 +p you don't know if its 28k psi or if I did something retarded and loaded it to 35k psi. You can't say what .380+p is because it doesn't exist. Its like measuring the girth of an invisible pink elepant. I'm not a reloading expert but I'd say if you loaded a .380 at .38 super +p pressure (36.5k psi) you'd have a potentially dangerous round on your hands.

    Perhaps the confusion comes from that .38 super is a different round than .380 although is dimensionally the same, the .38 super gun is designed to handle the drastically increased pressure of that load. it is more than just +P. Its sort of like 10mm and .40, or .38spl and .357 mag. They may be very close size wise, but its important the gun is made to handle the pressure of that load. Designers know what 9mm and 9mm +P is and can design for those. You just can't start pouring powder into a .380 acp round though because a .38 super gun can handle it loaded to that pressure.

    Hope it helps, I just want to be sure its clear that there is no .380 +p and that because a .38 super can take it doesn't mean a .380 gun can. Don't want anyone getting gun parts in the face.
     
  18. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

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  19. AustinL911

    AustinL911 Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator

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    No worries about gun parts to face. As I said, I'm not looking to do anything over the top with this one. I'll just be running factory ammo in it.


    I'm still confused about there not being an overpressure round for .380 though. I'm not doubting you, I just found these which appears to be contradictary of what you're saying:

    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=550134

    and

    http://www.outdoorsuperstore.com/product.asp?prod=286089

    and

    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=277438&t=11082005

    From ^this^ link:

    "Buffalo Bore loads their ammunition up to maximum SAAMI specifications, which delivers devastating performance on a wide range of game. Please note that this ammunition is not intended for older guns. It is made for modern firearms only, as some of the ammunition could damage older and weaker firearms."


    I also found this article with a guy that seems to agree with what you're saying:

    "*The Corbon .380 JHP currently sold is not rated +P. This is some older Corbon that I had on hand and it clearly is so marked, both on the 50-round box and on the cartridge case. Chronographed against newer 90-gr. Corbon JHP, I find no difference in chronographed speeds from the Bersa. I have no hard facts on why the earlier ammunition was given the +P rating."

    http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Bersa Thunder.htm


    Looks like you're right though. :wavey:
     
  20. AB13

    AB13 New Member

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    I bought and owned an older Bersa back in 1992-3. I dropped the mag at the range and it fell right on the plastic end piece which instantly broke it and all of my bullets, spring and follower scattered all over the place.

    Had that been a CCW situation, I would have been royally fucked. I remember the bluing also being worn off from the sweat from my body from CCWing it for only 6 months.
     
  21. Fingerbang

    Fingerbang What the fuck is the internet?

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    My father owns an older model and it seems solid. Shoots nicely as well.
     

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