GUN How well do 1-4x variables do as combat optics?

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by xpinchx, May 5, 2009.

  1. xpinchx

    xpinchx hes got a nice cock, on the thin side but its stil

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    46,800
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    East Lansing, MI
    I've been going back on forth between getting a 2MOA aimpoint/Eotech with a 3x magnifier in the future, or simply a 1-4x variable optic. I plan on making this my HD weapon of choice, but I would also like to shoot for groups at 100 yards which I know with my skill level I can't do without magnification. I was thinking about getting a Millet DMS-1 set up on a Burris P.E.P.R. to see how I like the set-up, and if I like it I could sell it to upgrade to an accupoint/larue. Anyway, I know a 1-4x wouldn't be as fast as an aimpoint/eotech but are they still pretty quick (ie faster than irons) in close quarters?

    I know it's no larue/trijicon but still pretty sexy. I'd lose the flip caps though.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. This is the one I'd focus on. Basically, lots of the low power variables aren't really suited to CQB style use, for various reasons he talks about. The only one he said he likes for a multi-use role is the S&B, which is a shitload of money. Still, he says it's ~20% slower than an Aimpoint for him in close quarters.

    I'd define 1 role for this gun, and build it to fit that role as well as possible.
     
  3. I'll read the rest when I get to work. :o
     
  4. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ventura California
    To say a low power variable is slower than a aimpoint is a joke. If the low power variable has a sufficiently good recticle, glass, and low magnification (true 1x or 1.25x, etc) then it is all down to the training and ability of the shooter. That's like saying that eotechs are faster then aimpoints which are faster than iron sights. It maybe true for some people and not others.

    As far as suitablity for CQB the only two factors are durability and shooter preference. As far as durability you have to justify is it durable enough. I would not recommend use the scope as a club or dropping the rifle directly on the scope. Even if you did it should survive but there is potential for bad stuff.

    As a civilian who has a much less chance of being in a SHTF situation I am more than happy to go with a variable for it's flexibility. If/when I do get in a SHTF situation I will just do the best I can and again it comes more down to my training and ability more than my equipment. If I were say in Iraq where I was pretty much assured S-would-HTF then I would go with a really durable optic like a ACOG for long range and a secondary short range optic like a side mounted doctor.
     
  5. Don't you run the C-More on your AR for the close range stuff?
     
  6. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ventura California
    In terms of speed From my personaly experience I would say it's a wash. I ran a TR21r and a cmore on the same rifle for several years. On the short range stages I ran the TR21r on the lowest 1.25x setting. You can see from some of my videos during this time I could do just as well with either. In fact I often switched back and forth between the two as it was whatever I picked up with my eyes first at the moment. I actually prefered the TR21r as I felt the recticle was faster, but the cmore looked cooler on video.

    Now that my long range optic is a 3x9 the 3x is significantly slower for short range.
     
  7. P-chan

    P-chan New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Messages:
    52,586
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio....son
    I've seen rifles that had something like a 1-4x in the "normal" position, and something like an aimpoint/eotech mounted on the side - in CQB the shooter tilts the weapon 45 degrees or whatever and can use the aimpoint. Would a solution like this work?
     
  8. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ventura California
    That's how I run my rifle. Works well. I like the reflex type sights as a secondary short range dot sight. I run the cmore which is a big as I would go personally. I think a eotech would be too much. I also think a tube sight such as a aimpoint would be less effective if mounted this way, at least for me. Most people I see either run a cmore off the handguard or a small micro reflex such as a doctor or jpoint on a burkett offset mount.

    [​IMG][/URL">http://madtrigger.net/images/gats/xxopen%20ar%20optics.jpg"]
     
  9. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    9,041
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Illinois
    Like yar said I think it comes down to the shooter. Popular internet opinion is that they're slower. I question how much of that is from experience and how much is just parroting an ar15 sticky. I've not had the opportunity to use a timer with it but I didn't feel handicapped by the old 1.25 accupoint.

    Thats not to say a red dot doesn't have its place. I wasn't happy with the reticle of the accupoint indoors with a weapon light, I thought it washed out when an aimpoint didn't. Again though thats probably a ymmv thing. Nothing to do but try them out and see what works for your eyes.
     
  10. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2008
    Messages:
    4,852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ventura California
    That has more to do with the fact the accupoint is not battery powered. It uses tritum and fiber optics. If you need a low power variable for no light/low light then get something battery powered like the meopta for example.
     
  11. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    9,041
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Illinois
    Yeah it makes me wonder why they didn't design it with a little forward facing fiber pick up though.
     
  12. fatmoocow

    fatmoocow bored OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    18,329
    Likes Received:
    307
    Location:
    the intarweb
    maybe it's just me, but for minute of hallway shooting optics don't matter at all. Get what you like shooting and don't worry about "speed." 1-4+ is ideal for your particular goals.
     
  13. xpinchx

    xpinchx hes got a nice cock, on the thin side but its stil

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    46,800
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    East Lansing, MI
    :coold: That was a good read and is definitely making me reconsider my options... as of right now I'm leaning towards one of the aimpoints, although I'm not sure which type yet. I like the idea of 2moa to make cleaner shots at 100 and better accuracy if I put a 3x in front of it further down the line. Like fatmoocow pointed out though in a defensive situation if I have time to reach for my rifle it's more like minute-of-doorway-from-behind-bed and pointshooting would serve my HD purposes just fine at that range. And a variable might be better if I decide to take it hunting, and probably more fun shooting targets at 100. I'm tempted to make this my SHTF rifle though...
     
  14. I've used 2MOA aimpoints, older 3MOA aimpoints, and I have a 4MOA aimpoint. Honestly, when looking at a target 100+ yards away it doesn't make much difference, and it really won't affect your shooting. Up close though it is easier to pick up the 4MOA dot. Also, like they talked about in the thread, the the 4MOA dot is smaller than the width of a man's chest even at 300 yards. Even with the magnifier, everything is scaled equally.
     
  15. xpinchx

    xpinchx hes got a nice cock, on the thin side but its stil

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    46,800
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    East Lansing, MI
    Good points all across... When put that way I guess I'm not that particular to the size of the dot as long as it's < 4 moa, but what should I be looking for when comparing the different aimpoint models? (i.e CompM's, T1, etc) Any specific advantages to any one in particular?
     
  16. Keesh

    Keesh New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,333
    Likes Received:
    0
    Aimpoints suck for me because of my astigmatism. I find the Trijicon and Leupold variable scopes to be a much better option for me.
     
  17. LancerV

    LancerV Something Happened OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    49,869
    Likes Received:
    74
    I believe he runs a full length vltor stock anyways
     
  18. LancerV

    LancerV Something Happened OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    49,869
    Likes Received:
    74
  19. The M2 is the oldest design you're likely to come across. The updated version of the M2 is the M3. They are both NV compatible. The M2 is rated at 10,000 hours and the battery on the M3 is rated at 50,000. The ML2 and ML3 are the versions of the M2 and M3 without the NV compatibility. They are rated at the same battery life as their M2/M3 brothers.

    The M4 and M4s are the newest of the full size Aimpoints. They are rated at 80,000 hours and are only available with 2MOA reticles. They are identical in function with the only difference being the battery compartment's lower placement on the M4s model.

    The new Micro line, the R-1, T-1, and H-1 are your other option. Aimpoint says the R-1 is for pistols, and other than it being silver I don't know what the difference between it and the other ones are. The T-1 is the NV compatible model, and it is waterproof to 80 feet. The H-1 is the non-NV model and is is waterproof to 15 feet. That's the only difference between the two. All the Micro models are 4MOA.
     
  20. Only the Micro models, or all the 4MOA Aimpoints?
     
  21. Keesh

    Keesh New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,333
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah 4MOA dot at a couple hundred yards with my eyes doesn't work. I can hit steel no problem with irons at that distance so until I find a 1x I like I'm sticking to irons. I'm seriously considering the Leupold Prismatic after a trip to Leupold's custom shop for a different reticle.
     
  22. LancerV

    LancerV Something Happened OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
    Messages:
    49,869
    Likes Received:
    74
    That rectile looks way to busy
     
  23. xpinchx

    xpinchx hes got a nice cock, on the thin side but its stil

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    46,800
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    East Lansing, MI
    :coold: I think either the ML3 or T1 is the optic for me. Not sure how I'm going to decide, I don't think anyone around here carries high end red dots.
     
  24. xpinchx

    xpinchx hes got a nice cock, on the thin side but its stil

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    46,800
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    East Lansing, MI
    Not as bad as the GRSC :hs:.

    [​IMG]
     
  25. xpinchx

    xpinchx hes got a nice cock, on the thin side but its stil

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Messages:
    46,800
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    East Lansing, MI

Share This Page