Honda engines can rev high....SO WHAT?

Discussion in 'OT Driven' started by troglodyte, Oct 8, 2003.

  1. troglodyte

    troglodyte Guest

    As Hondas are considered nothing or just chick cars/family cars in JDM land, why do American kids keep making a big friggen deal about the ability of a Vtec to rev at high RPMs? I know people love to get into flame wars over Hondas but I seriously am curious as to why an engine having to ability to rev high is such a big deal especially when this engine lacks the ability to put that power to the ground?


    I'm not interested in drag racing, Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz but I know thats what critics of Hondas are usually interested in and thus criticize them for their lack of torque. I think this is a legitimate complaint though. Honestly, what is the benefit of being able to rev high? So what?
     
  2. Mantis

    Mantis Guest

    just a different way to make power, or lack there of. what would these engines be if they couldn't rev so high? other companies use displacement, honda uses revs to make power. i like hondas, not as performance cars, but just being overall good cars for normal people for normal driving. honda may use this form of power more than anyone else, but other companies like toyota and mazda do the same. the celica gts and the rx8 for example.

    i'll give some guys credit, making a 2L 4 banger able to run with the V8's is quite a feat. sure they've poured in tens of thousands to do so but it's still something to take note of.

    the thing about hondas engines is that they're already so tuned out coming from the factory that it takes a lot to get additional power out of them compared to pretty much any domestic engine.

    who knows why a lot of these kids choose honda as their project hobby car other than they're cheap and reliable and easy to get. plus the aftermarket for hondas is huge.

    i'm no hater, there are very respectable hondas on the road, just the majority of them are ricers who don't know shit and think they are the shit coz they have vtec. :p
     
  3. troglodyte

    troglodyte Guest

    I think this may be the answer, but then again it goes back to the "so what" part. The engines can't make useable power unless they are in the higher RPMs and in a light chassis. Full interior domestics as well as (to me domestic) Japanese cars can and do smoke little Civics left and right. I have only seen a few Type-Rs in my life. The rest are driven by women or families. Yet, in America, kids make such a big deal about the Honda engines being able to rev high. There is no advantage in doing so from a well designed engine. Oh, thats right, Honda engines are well designed for efficiency - not power.
     
  4. Gedas

    Gedas OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2003
    Messages:
    9,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Chicago
    It's all in the way how you mod the car. Most of the american teens "mod" their cars with eurotails, ugly body kits, and huge spoilers, they think it makes them fast or some shit like that. Rarely will you see Honda drivers who make their car actually fast. Go to www.honda-tech.com and ask the same question, I dont think you'll get bullshit from them, no rice there, well maybe some.
     
  5. J_75

    J_75 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2003
    Messages:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    0
    from an engineering standpoint, it can be pretty amazing...

    I don't have the exact values, but engines like the one in the S2000 have piston speeds at (or maybe above?) those in F1 cars. The only other racing that goes above those speeds is in motorcycles......the forces on those wrist pins/con rods/cranks must be insane


    But I see your point about total power.......no replacement for displacement.
     
  6. Elex

    Elex Guest

    You just have to been around when the import scene started getting big i jumped in around 97 and i was with the dsm crowd, after seeing motors crankwalk left and right and busted transmissions. I went to honda everyone i got into it with built 2.0L all motor cars and LS VTEC swaps.

    And to say they arent good for making power would be a pretty stupid statement running 10's, 11's, 12's were something they said no one would ever do in a street legal daily driven honda now its pretty much common.

    Honda VTEC heads have great ports and flow well for stock heads and after a good head porting you can see incredible gains if the person knows what they are doing. The cranks can handle 1000+hp the rods and pistons are good till at least 350hp. the weak link being that b series engines are open deck which is good for cooling but not so great in the way of high hp but people find ways to make it work.

    Reving high is only a factor if you build your car for all motor and even then its not always the best route to go but its a small displacement 4cyl so making power higher in the rpm band is going to be part of it. Larger stroke = more torque down low and hondas are not large stroke engines thats pretty simple to understand.

    I remember the year skunkworks (skunk2) had shagday in the teg and they were breaking 12's all motor and it was the biggest deal now you cant even run in an event at 12's because the majorty of the classes are running 10's and 9's with ericks racing.

    And turbo classes have been well into the single digits now and more and more people are putting together teams for racing and running low 8's.

    I never hung around the ricer crowd i was always around people who knew their stuff and basicly competed on the streets for money find a spot put on the slicks and just run it no bullshit or anything else if you lost you paid up.

    now turbo hondas are breaking 9's daily driven and all motor hondas are running 11's street legal so just because people buy them to get to point a from point b means jack shit different strokes for different folks.

    i see a bunch of teenage girls in mustangs so does that mean its a girls car and shouldnt be raced? i also see a bunch of idiots in mustangs that wouldnt know an intake from a plug wire yet it doesnt really matter to me.

    You just seem to have a chip on your shoulder about something that has no affect on you at all.
     
  7. troglodyte

    troglodyte Guest

    Me...a chip on my shoulder? :rofl:

    No, Honda engines aren't good for making usable power. There is a difference betwen a dyno queen (*cough*SUPRA*cough*) and a car than can actually put that power to the ground. And Hondas running sub 12-times in the 1/4 mile? Zzzzzzzzzz, drag racing in stripped cars that still can't beat full interior rivals. But, to be fair, when I see a Civic that can hang with a Chaser, Supra, Soarer, Skyline, GTO, FTO, etc, etc, etc, I'll be sure to post up here.

    And, you avoid the point that the engine revs high - so what? It takes so much for the engine to actually do anything that better cars are already gone. But, its quite telling to me when a bachan asks me why so many kids in America race Honda Civics because they are a woman's car. The Mustang is not a chick car...the V6 AT just happens to be liked by a lot of women.
     
  8. J_75

    J_75 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2003
    Messages:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    0
    Which part about the challenges of designing a high-revving, economy oriented engine don't you understand? Study some mechanical or automotive engineering and tell me how to build a 150k mile engine that revs to 9k, can be made for less than $2k, and puts out more HP per liter than any production automobile engine in the world.........tell me that, and I'll sell it to Ford, GM, and Daimler-Benz and become a multi-millionaire in no time at all.

    After 20 years, the Big 2.5 are FINALY coming close to being able to compete on a displacement-to-displacement basis with Japanese engines. Anyone can build a 5.whatever liter V8 with big power (as Toyota, and Nissan have proved), but it takes real engineering to make a 2 liter I4 putting out 250 HP.


    I love muslce cars, but I appreciate great engineering too...


    You obviously have an axe to grind with I4's, so grind away.... :bigthumb:
     
  9. Mantis

    Mantis Guest

    very well put. :bigthumb:
     
  10. StealthMode

    StealthMode Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    3,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    MN
    No, you see, thats where your wrong, it's not the vtec, it's the 6in fart pipe! ;):big grin:

    I'm not a hater either, in fact I am in the market for a Civic or Accord, mostly for the reliability, and gas milage, and I do like the styling, and will probably add some "pimpage" to it. But come on, 6ft airline wings? I want a car, not a bi-plane!



    Stealth -
     
  11. dennisk

    dennisk Guest

    Hmm, keeping in mind it is a Honda, figure, the lower rev band is the economy part, then when the 2nd lobes kick in, you'll get that bump. Its getting an economy engine/something to go all in one.

    Drive around town, shift at 4k, get 25-30 mpg. Get on the track (road course), keep everything above 5,700, and stay on par with Mustangs.


    In terms of like a Civic Ex, just something extra to get you passing power.
     
  12. troglodyte

    troglodyte Guest

    The part that makes it impressive over other powerplants. No one has met this challenge.

    Tell me why revving to 9k RPMs is impressive, important, practical, or superior?


    Yo are easily impressed. SR20DETs consistently pump out over 500hp and embarass Vtec engines on a weekly basis. As far as US engines go, not impressive in the least when comparing the size to their power. But, why stick to the displacement-displacement issue when the engines simply aren't faster? For a family car, I would say a Honda is a great choice. My GF's mom owns a Honda Fit and I love it. Great practical car. However, the fantasy of American kids that they are driving high performance sports cars in the issue, not so much the engine itself.



    I am not in the US. I don't drive a US domestic. And, I appreciate great enineering as well. I don't worship it, however.


    And you obviously have no clue. I currently drive a car with an I6 and I am looking for an I4 to swap into my next car - which originally comes with an I6 from the factory. The I4 is a superior engine in every way, yet it only comes as a 2liter while the I6 is a 3liter.

    There is no axe here at all. But, I do wonder why there is a facination by American kids about the engine being able to rev to high RPMs. If its not faster than the other guy, who gives a shit?
     
  13. Elex

    Elex Guest

    Turbo != N/A

    if you want to compare turbo cars then look at the majorty of turbo civics on the race circut and others who have 500-600whp on their motors if you want make it an even playing field at least compare motors which are the same in terms of performance.

    Comparing a N/A engine to a Turbo and saying the turbo makes more power is pretty stupid.
     
  14. J_75

    J_75 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2003
    Messages:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    0

    That about sums it up.....this thread is officialy :greddy:



    Any monkey with a wrench can build a 400 HP 350 c.i. block....hell, you can buy one out of a catalog, but I would bet my life that you couldn't get 250 HP out of a NA 2000 cc. Not gonna happen. :wiggle:
     
  15. Elex

    Elex Guest


    been done in the honda camp for awhile now :bigthumb: :wiggle:
     
  16. jsmonet

    jsmonet egg

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Messages:
    1,759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    so cali
    sr20det's @ 500hp all the time? where? please show me these RELIABLE DAILY DRIVER sr20's. you're full of shit.

    the same amount of money to get an sr20 up to 500hp would be spent getting a b-series or h-series to that output. 500hp takes a LOT of mods on almost any 1.6-2.4 liter 4cyl motor.

    come talk your shit in Si vs. All on clubsi http://forums.clubsi.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB4
    let's see how long you last. oh, and for the record: SvA has maybe 5-10 members with civics of any kind out of the large group of regulars.

    put simply, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
     
  17. jsmonet

    jsmonet egg

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Messages:
    1,759
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    so cali
    jun stg 3 cams, tuning, higher comp, bolt ons, porting. that's the lazy man's way of topping that 250hp mark easily. hell we had an admin at clubsi become the jun poster child, putting out a fair amount OVER 250whp.
     
  18. J_75

    J_75 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2003
    Messages:
    2,769
    Likes Received:
    0

    fair enough.....but I meant that THIS joker (troglydyte) couldn't do it. I don't think this guy has ever READ about building an engire, let alone BUILT one himself.... :rofl:


    With enough money, you could build anything from anything.....I'm just saying its easy to get 300 HP out of 5.7 liters....doing the same with 2.0 liters is a completely different ball game. :)
     
  19. MrJasey

    MrJasey OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2003
    Messages:
    488
    Likes Received:
    0
    wow this post is fucking WORTHLESS.

    if you dont know anything go away. seriously. honda = reliable. the engines rev high. u say so what. i say if u dont care then why the fuck are u posting about it. most honda cars arent performance machines, but they are economic and reliable. see also what some posters said about the technology(making monster V8's put out decent numbers isnt the same as a higher output 4 banger).

    also. dont fucking compare a TURBO charged car to a NA car. seriously, wtf.
     
  20. troglodyte

    troglodyte Guest

    Come to Yokohama and you'll see more than you can imagine. But, then you're all just a bunch of kids with a chip on your shoulder. Its bad enough that American cars consistently defeat you but also the JDM land you worship so much also laughs at you. :fawk:

    I simply made a topic and you kids read what you want regardless of whats actually posted. Hey, it makes the net entertaining.
     
  21. Ryno

    Ryno Gun in hand

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    1,824
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    PA
    You have to also remember that civics aren't the only honda. I own a 4th gen prelude SI with a H23A1. Compared to civics and alot of other sport compacts... this engine has a lot of torque and doesn't have to be revved as high to create power. With a few simple bolt on mods such as intake, header and exhaust, and some tuning, I have it runnin pretty good. And who cares if you create your power at 3500 rpm or 6500 rpm... it's power either way.

    You say that kids get hondas because they're cheap. Last time I checked honda's hold their value VERY well. If someone wanted a fast car they could buy an old muscle car...in decent condition for 5 grand. But do they??? no because unlike our honda's... we don't wanna be fixin that old piece of trash every other week.

    I've been in the import scene for awhile. I'm def. not into rice, I like to make my car look good, but you won't find any rice on it. What I've found the last few years is that all the people that complain about all the hondas havin to rev hight are just mad because we are running the same times on the strip as them with half the # of cylinders, we can outhandle them any day of the week, and our cars are ALOT more fun to drive.

    True car enthusiasts love cars... bottom line. They don't bash other peoples cars because they aren't into the same thing that they are. They respect them for the fact that they love cars and that's it. I like everything from a civic to a vette. 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 cylinders... they are all amazing.

    Don't worry...someday you'll wise up and buy a honda :)
     
  22. Mantis

    Mantis Guest

    i bought a honda. won't buy another honda anytime soon though. honda's fuckin up lately. their quality is going down hill. i know a lot of people that bought brand new hondas over the past few years, peopel that have owned hondas for many years before, and they've been havin shitloads of problems with them. nissan's quality is improving, toyota is remaining steady if not improving while honda is just dickin around. they need to shape up. they were fine throughout the 90's. but damn, at this rate, i'll never own another honda.
     
  23. troglodyte

    troglodyte Guest

    1994 Prelude - really nice car. This generation is the best Prelude ever. Honda should drop the Integra out of the Acura lineup. It really doesn't belong. Perhaps rebadge it as a Prelude and see it at Honda dealers. I think this is a better idea long term for the platform.

    Then, I certainly do not include this engine with the others that Honda kids worship as a god of engineering. You sound like a Honda guy that also gets pissed off at ricers. I joined a Del Sol board and I was happy to see members there smack down kids talking crap. I do not want to sully every Honda owner on this board. Some are fast, and yes there are many a Honda NSX here that can smoke me in wangan and tohge.

    I would say that getting it second-hand for their parents also has a lot to do with it. So does insurance. When I was 17, I could have afforded a Buick Grand National OR the insurance...but not both. Honda drivers can afford both and that is what I meant about being cheap.


    Not all Honda owners are but more often than not, ricers do make true enthusiasts look bad. This is why the Del Sol people would shut these kids up fast.

    Actually, I am asking why its such a big deal as from my experience back in the US, its these little kids that constantly state this after they lose a race. Hey, I think its an interesting technological feat but its for fuel efficiency not for making your car just like an F1 racer out there.

    No doubt there are fast Hondas out there but what has had to be done and the money spent makes me go :eek3: . I do laugh when I see a Honda beat a bigger displacement car but its not the engine so much as its also the fact the Honda weighs less. A win is a win is a win...but what is so great about the engine if it has to wind very very high to make good power? Your engine sounds much better.

    I never said I hated Honda. I just asked a question.

    Not for many many many years and only then will it be for a Del Sol to be converted to AWD. FWD cars are :greddy: in my opinion. AWD is the superior choice for all around performance.

    Thank you for your reasoned reply.
     
  24. Ryno

    Ryno Gun in hand

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    1,824
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    PA
  25. troglodyte

    troglodyte Guest

    Nope. That ain't rice at all. :bigthumb:
     

Share This Page