**HOME AUDIO CREW** v. Bose :mamoru:

Discussion in 'OT Technology' started by Dethfat, Jun 22, 2006.

  1. Dethfat

    Dethfat New Member

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    I remember reading an article that did a great job on how they compared Bose components with junk from radio shack and explained how it was basically the same thing. Do any of you fellas know what im talking about? It basically explained why bose is overrated and not what everyone thinks it is. It would be a great help if anyone has it in the bookmarks or know what I'm talking about. It would help me win an argument ;) thanx.
     
  2. 2demon5

    2demon5 New Member

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  3. G M

    G M New Member

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  4. Doc Brown

    Doc Brown Don't make me make you my hobby

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    I've been into speaker building for over 20 years.

    And I can tell you that it's true that the parts used are cheap.

    But I can also tell you that Amar Bose (the founder of Bose) knows what
    he's doing.
    I remember reading that the guy was a professor at MIT.

    His designs were always very intelligent, and if you were to take
    one of them and put state of the art drivers in them you would have
    some very serious speakers!
     
  5. TFunkadelic

    TFunkadelic One Nation Under A Groove

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    "His designs were always very intelligent, and if you were to take
    one of them and put state of the art drivers in them you would have
    some very serious speakers!"

    Emmet Brown, you're wrong. If you take state of the art drivers and put them in tiny little inch cubes you're still going to have less than spectacular sound quality due to laws of physics. I also wonder what kind of speakers you've been building if you believe you can just take any old driver, plop it in a box and have "serious speakers."
     
  6. Doc Brown

    Doc Brown Don't make me make you my hobby

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    I certainly wasn't talking about the small cubes, but since you went there,
    *YES* you could also rebuild them. And make them sound better.
    But I sure as hell wasn't talking about "any old drivers" when I said that.



    What I was referring to when I said the designs were great was two things.
    The direct reflecting designs, and just about all of the bass units.
    And it's the direct reflecting designs that would sound great if you used high end parts.
    I don't know if it was Amar's thinking or somebody in his research dept., but
    the bass units that I have seen mechanical drawings of are very, very clever.


    Here's something that everybody should know about loudspeaker design.
    For every solution, there are problems.

    There are so many anomalies in a speaker system, that no speaker
    system ever made solves all of them.

    It's well known that phase distortion happens when the voice coils are not on the same centerline.
    So some manufacturers tried to make stepped cabinet fronts that
    placed all the voice coils in a fairly close vertical line.

    But that introduces all kinds of harsh edges that mess up the sound wave as it
    comes off the cabinet. oops.

    Then there are crossover phase issues. I bet that nobody reading this knew that the true
    "center" of the sound does not come perfectly straight off of the cabinet.
    In fact, depending on the crossover slope, the point in space where the sound meets
    in true phase is nowheres near straight off of the cabinet.


    And the rise time of woofers is much slower than tweeters.
    Talk about a sound that is not in unison.


    So you can use electrostatics, ribbons and planars to speed things up.
    But the ones that are big enough to not need a subwoofer, have
    a sweet spot the size of a quarter.


    Also, as the sound wave forms around the edge of the cabinet, you have an uneven
    "launch" of frequencies.
    The high frequencies on a typical 12" wide cabinet will form completely off of the front
    of the cabinet down to 1120hz.
    No problem. It's the frequencies that are below that point that cause trouble.

    Now what happens when you have a lower frequency than the front panel width can accomodate?
    The sound wave forms around the edge of the cabinet, and goes back to the wall behind it and then
    and only then does it come back forward. So you have part of the wave that launched off of the cabinet.
    It went straight forward.
    But the rest of the wave, the part that formed around the side of the cabinet and bounced off of the
    rear wall arrives out of time with the front part of the wave.
    Bummer


    I could go on and on and on.

    So where does Amar Bose come in, you ask?
    Bose realized that there was no perfect speaker. And that room reflections accounted
    for a large part of what made a speaker sound good or bad.
    And of course he was right. Some of the most complex speaker building articles
    I ever read was on room boundries, reflections and refractions.
    It's a big enough deal that many recording studios use a live end dead end
    arrangement to balance things out.
    So anyway, Bose decided to take advantage of that, and purposely bounce sound off of the walls.
    And guess what? To a lot of people, they sound pretty darn good even with crappy
    drivers in them.
    And you would be fooling yourself if you thought they would not sound a lot better with great drivers.
     
  7. TFunkadelic

    TFunkadelic One Nation Under A Groove

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    Better, maybe, but they still wouldn't be great by a long shot. Anyone with a brain knows that there is no such thing as a zero compromise speaker system, so essentially what you have argued is that Bose decided to throw things like baffle defraction, crossover design, and time alignment to the way side with the hope that utilizing room reflections would make up for it...There are several big issues with this...

    For one, no two rooms are the same. You can do as much lab testing as you want, but you can't make everyones living room the same. Sound will reflect very different from place to place, sometimes for the better, and sometimes not. Bose has no control over this.

    Secondly, as if time alignment within the speaker itself weren't bad enough, Bose strives to take it even further by intentionally creating reflections within the room, further increasing the time smear effect. Now detail and imaging are even more marred than they already would have been.

    Last of all, these cleverly designed "bass modules" you speak of. They sound abysmal, they're not that clever. Small drivers, small box, small bass. Folded horn designs have been around for ages. Oh wait, it's not a folded horn, it's a "wave guide" according to Bose. Last time I checked, Bose products were still governed by the laws of physics. And lets not forget the fact that the "bass module" plays at frequencies above the point of non-directionality...Seamless subwoofer integration? yeah right.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2006
  8. Ronin

    Ronin Guest

  9. TFunkadelic

    TFunkadelic One Nation Under A Groove

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    Essentially, Bose speakers are inherently bad in a variety of ways, their only true "positive" being their direct-reflecting design, which, in itself has some very serious flaws. No matter how good of drivers you use, the designs will invariably suffer the same problems. Whether or not the direct reflecting design is even a plus depends on how much detail and coherence you are willing to sacrifice for a more "live" sounding recording, and how close to ideal your room is for that type of speaker.
     
  10. Doc Brown

    Doc Brown Don't make me make you my hobby

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    Better, maybe, but they still wouldn't be great by a long shot. Anyone with a brain knows that there is no such thing as a zero compromise speaker system, so essentially what you have argued is that Bose decided to throw things like baffle defraction, crossover design, and time alignment to the way side with the hope that utilizing room reflections would make up for it...There are several big issues with this...

    This depends on the situation.
    I have a couple of pairs of Dynaudio monitors. I don't do direct reflecting speakers.
    Never will. My argument is not that they would ever be better.
    BUT! That is only because I listen directly in front of my speakers.
    So the directional effect that speakers have is of no concern to me.

    But if you like to party a lot, and have people over a lot.
    Or even like to walk around the room a lot while you listen. Like maybe they
    are in a hobby room for example.
    THEN - the direct reflecting speaker will hold it's own.

    Because once you leave the comfortable confines of the sweet spot of your speakers, you are at that point COUNTING on the reflective principles that Bose speakers take advantage of.

    For one, no two rooms are the same. You can do as much lab testing as you want, but you can't make everyones living room the same. Sound will reflect very different from place to place, sometimes for the better, and sometimes not. Bose has no control over this.

    It's not a matter of Bose not being able to control this, it's a matter of Bose counting
    on reflections.
    That's how the speaker works.
    You should read a good speaker building article about room reflections.
    The amount of times that the sound reflects in a room is almost unbelievable.
    The reason you may have never noticed this, is that the brain ignores anything past a certain amount of delay. Of course part of this is due to the absorption of the sound within the room
    as the sound ricochet's around the room.

    Secondly, as if time alignment within the speaker itself weren't bad enough, Bose strives to take it even further by intentionally creating reflections within the room, further increasing the time smear effect. Now detail and imaging are even more marred than they already would have been.

    This is only true when compared to sitting still in the sweet spot.

    Last of all, these cleverly designed "bass modules" you speak of. They sound abysmal, they're not that clever. Small drivers, small box, small bass. Folded horn designs have been around for ages. Oh wait, it's not a folded horn, it's a "wave guide" according to Bose. Last time I checked, Bose products were still governed by the laws of physics. And lets not forget the fact that the "bass module" plays at frequencies above the point of non-directionality...Seamless subwoofer integration? yeah right.

    A 150hz signal has a wavelength of seven and a half feet.
    So if the cubes are anywhere near the subs, they will appear non-directional to the average ear.

    Again, I'm not trying to sell anybody in the idea of the speakers as being great.
    I'm basically just saying that the bad rap is mostly uninformed.

    I run Dynaudio monitors and seperate Dynaudio subs.
    My sub cabinets are almost 7 cubic feet each.
    They have a pair of Dynaudio 30W100's in a push pull compound load
    in each cabinet.
    I know accurate sound reproduction.
    But I also know just how intelligent the direct reflect sound is.
     
  11. TFunkadelic

    TFunkadelic One Nation Under A Groove

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    "It's not a matter of Bose not being able to control this, it's a matter of Bose counting
    on reflections.
    That's how the speaker works.
    You should read a good speaker building article about room reflections.
    The amount of times that the sound reflects in a room is almost unbelievable.
    The reason you may have never noticed this, is that the brain ignores anything past a certain amount of delay. Of course part of this is due to the absorption of the sound within the room
    as the sound ricochet's around the room."

    You missed the point. Bose obviously relies on the reflections of a room, but this is inherently flawed because no room reflects sound the same way. I'm aware that sound is reflected thousands of times in a room, but that doesn't mean that all rooms are pretty much the same, as you describe them.

    Stereophile once reviewed Bose's flagship speaker, and described how radically different the speaker could sound (for better or worse) based on where it was placed within a room, or based on what kind of room it was placed on. Just like other speaker designs, direct reflecting systems are not immune to room reflections just because they try to take advantage of the, and in many cases make themselves sound worse.

    This depends on the situation.
    I have a couple of pairs of Dynaudio monitors. I don't do direct reflecting speakers.
    Never will. My argument is not that they would ever be better.
    BUT! That is only because I listen directly in front of my speakers.
    So the directional effect that speakers have is of no concern to me.

    But if you like to party a lot, and have people over a lot.
    Or even like to walk around the room a lot while you listen. Like maybe they
    are in a hobby room for example.
    THEN - the direct reflecting speaker will hold it's own.

    Because once you leave the comfortable confines of the sweet spot of your speakers, you are at that point COUNTING on the reflective principles that Bose speakers take advantage of.

    If you're looking for a set of party speakers, why not get something that's cheap and loud enough and save your bucks for food and drinks? A party where people are concerned about being in the "sweet spot" is a lame ass party tthat shouldn't be happening in the first place, and any party that's focused on showing off a pair of speakers isn't going to include Bose in any way.


    As far as your much bragged Dynaudio system is concerned, I've been running a Proac system with no subs for awhile now and feel it sounds much more natural than any subwoofer system ever could. If all you listen to is pipe organ music it might be alright though.
     
  12. Doc Brown

    Doc Brown Don't make me make you my hobby

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    Dynaudio > Proac x10.

    The rest of it I'm not going to waste any more time on.
     
  13. TFunkadelic

    TFunkadelic One Nation Under A Groove

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    Despite the fact that your opinion is subjective, I know plenty of people who would disagree with you, both critics and customers.

    Your time wasn't wasted. Each of your points in favor of Bose were defeated until you essentially agreed that they are a poor product. At least you walk away accepting that.
     
  14. Doc Brown

    Doc Brown Don't make me make you my hobby

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    You're obviously too stupid and uneducated in loudspeaker design to know the difference. That's why I am giving up on you.


    Nobody with even the slightest clue about loudspeaker design would rate Proac in the same galaxy as Dynaudio.


    If you had any clue, you would be embarrassed by such a claim.
    But.... your ignorance must be bliss.
     
  15. TFunkadelic

    TFunkadelic One Nation Under A Groove

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    Or did you perhaps stop to think that maybe I had listened to both, along with the opinions I have read and with both of these I have formed a personal opinion on a personal topic? If you take the time to do a google search on Proac vs. Dynaudio you will find many "stupid and uneducated" people doing just that, as well as comparing to Dynaudio to other brands like Paradigm. I agree that the Dynaudio Confidence and Evidence lines are exceptional, and more advanced that Proac offerings, but, within the same price range (aka within a REASONABLE price range) they are no better or worse. It is up to the consumer. I personally prefer my Proacs. I have watched Dynaudio's factor DVD, I have listened to many models, and I have several friends who own speakers from them. I also have many who chose to go other routes. It's your money, and if you chose Dynaudio all the power to you, but they're not for everyone and they're not the end all of speakers. If they were, there wouldn't be room for hundreds of high end loudspeaker manufacturers to do business.
     
  16. JRock10

    JRock10 Active Member

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    so here's my $.02: While Bose designs are innovative (in the respect that they can produce an acceptable sound to the AVERAGE consumer), they won't satisfy audiophiles. I would consider myself a novice to amateur audiophile at best. I have heard my fair share of nice equipment; however, I have also learned from sales experience to learn to appreciate what other people sound good to them. Thus, if I walk into a man's house, and he brags about his Lifestyle system sounding incredible, I'll listen to it and try to find what it is that he appreciates about the sound.

    On another note, some people want sound with as little intrusion as possible, thus the cubes. So while they may not do shit for us, some people use Bose to fill the bill nicely. And i'll admit, at some points I have been mildly impressed by a Bose system. not that i would ever use it myself. Just thoughts to consider
     
  17. JRock10

    JRock10 Active Member

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    hating on bose, ecock fighting about box building and soundwaves, some elite-thugging. then i put in my $.02 but you should read mine, because, really, what else matters?
     
  18. twistid

    twistid Banged By Super Models Moderator

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  19. twistid

    twistid Banged By Super Models Moderator

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    the designs are not that innovative, they are just scaled down designs from the past... and have been used for longer than the company has been around... it's just in their mad marketing skills they claim it's all their's. personally of all the oddity companies, i'd choose old Dahlquist as my oldschool speakers.
     
  20. Doc Brown

    Doc Brown Don't make me make you my hobby

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    Amar Bose has over two dozen patents.

    I would bet that is right up there with Dynaudio and Scanspeak.

    And I've made it perfectly clear that I was talking about the direct reflecting loudspeakers that Bose makes.
    Anybody could make small cubes.

    Also, all you have to do is look at the bass enclosure designs to see innovation.
    Nobody was doing that before Bose. Nobody.


    Put a pair, any pair of Bose direct reflecting speakers in a room with
    Proacs or Dynaudios of the same size range, and if you
    are sitting in a proper listening space, the Dynaudios and Proacs will stomp.

    But stand off to the side, sharp left or right, and you will now be counting
    on the room reflections to hear your music properly.
    Something the Bose speakers are designed to do very well, and the
    Proacs and Dynaudios are not.

    At that point the sound quality that you hear will be directly related to the quality of the drivers.

    Take the Bose drivers out and replace them with high end drivers,
    and the Bose speakers will sound better.

    They are a lifestyle speaker. And they're not for everyone.

    But to say that they are not innovative is silly.
     
  21. TFunkadelic

    TFunkadelic One Nation Under A Groove

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    Though a subwoofer looking like the Acoustimass Bass Module may not have been around until Bose designed it, the transmission line design, which it operates on, had been around for many many years. The first designs were popping up in the 1930's, decades before Bose even began his company in 1965. It wasn't until many years later that the the subwoofers were presented. I will credit Bose with providing the most widely used example of TL technology, but it is not the only (meadowlark audio and others come to mind), and it was definitely not the first of its kind.
     
  22. Doc Brown

    Doc Brown Don't make me make you my hobby

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    JESUS H. CHRIST ON A CROSS!!! Are you fucking kidding me??????????????


    That's the most far off the mark guess that I have ever heard in all my years of speaker building!

    The principles of a transmission line have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with acoustimass bass modules. NOTHING!!!!!

    A transmission lines single and only purpose is to reduce the problems with the back wave of a speaker inside a box. In case you didn't know it, the back wave is a huge problem in designing a properly damped cabinet.
    Ever hear of the B&W Matrix line of speakers? Those were just forward-thinking ways of doing the same thing that a Transmission line does. And that is removing the back wave from the equation.

    An acoustimass bass module takes advantage of the back wave with the same principles of Helmholtz resonation that every other ported box does. But in much more sophisticated ways than were imagined in the early days of loudspeaker design.


    There are generally two schools of thought when it comes to the speakers rear wave.
    Absorb it (mostly) like a transmission line, or using cabinet fill.
    (Transmission line speakers are known for being non resonant. So they
    can't be compared to Helmholtz resonance designs like Bose.)

    Or capitalize on it, like Bose or any other manufacturer that uses a ported cabinet does.




    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2006
  23. TFunkadelic

    TFunkadelic One Nation Under A Groove

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    Ooops, my bad...I got to thinking that the Acoustishit used the same "patented wave guide" technology as their other products. On closer inspection it's just a shitty bandpass box.
     
  24. Doc Brown

    Doc Brown Don't make me make you my hobby

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    I don't generally like vents, so I won't argue with that.
     
  25. eighteen_psi

    eighteen_psi Active Member

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    pics of Dynaudio gear
     

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