GUN Hmmmm just thinking about an MP5 in 5.7

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Brian Fantana, Mar 19, 2005.

  1. Brian Fantana

    Brian Fantana New Member

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    What would you guys think about that? The mp5 is slowly being fazed out because of the 9mm, but with the new 5.7 what would you think of it?
     
  2. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Active Member

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    I would think it'd be pretty damn close to a HK53.
     
  3. Brian Fantana

    Brian Fantana New Member

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    Isnt that .223?
     
  4. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    i'd be impressed if they tried harder to get people to see the value of a 10mm MP5. The 5.7mm is a specialty round, for general SMG use, it's not very ideal at all.
     
  5. oakie

    oakie my ninja.

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    45acp... cheaper ammo would encourage people to blow through 20rd mags even faster.
     
  6. soccaian

    soccaian New Member

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    the 5.7 sub machine gun concept has already been explored by FN... their P90.
     
  7. RRTX

    RRTX New Member

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    I don't think you would see it anyway since HK is making the MP-7 which is 4.6x30mm
     
  8. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    I'll believe that when I see it. The 5.7 is a piece of crap round, and you'd have to rework an MP5 to fit a round that long through the magwell.
     
  9. Vermincelli

    Vermincelli Banned

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    5.7 is a great round, but the MP5 platform is just not a good base for it.
     
  10. oakie

    oakie my ninja.

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    just because it comes with a 20rd mag doesnt mean you cant buy a larger cap mag :hsugh:
     
  11. oakie

    oakie my ninja.

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    it's a special purpose round that does what it's designed to do better than any other round.

    i definitely wouldnt call it a piece of crap.

    now, .32 auto is a piece of crap...
     
  12. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    Really? What's the purpose that it does better than any other round? Because it sucks at terminal ballistics. So, that can't be its purpose. It doesn't penetrate armor better than any other round. 5.56 will go through soft and most hard armor, and so will most rifle rounds. Hell, hot 9mm will go through all soft armor up to IIIA. So, that can't be the purpose. If it's designed to be a mediocre round, yeah, maybe it beats all the other rounds out there at that.

    And .32 Auto isn't as bad as .25 ACP.

    Edit: If they ever come out with a 5.7 round that actually performs ballistically, I'll jump on it. I only rail on it so hard right now because it's been hyped up to be this fantastic new wonder round that slips right through body armor and this and that, and makes these huge wounds. It doesn't. It penetrates soft armor. Whoopdeedoo. So do some pistol rounds and nearly all rifle rounds. The 5.7 round doesn't penetrate enough into a body to do proper damage to count as a defense round. It doesn't create the kind of wound profile needed to incapacitate people. When they make a 5.7 round that does, I'll buy it. I like the concept of a smaller round that does the same damage as 5.56, but as of yet, it doesn't exist.
     
  13. Vermincelli

    Vermincelli Banned

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    it penetrates 12 inches, penetrates standard combat body armor. It can penetrate a kevlar helmet at 200 yards. it tumbles at impact so it's permanent wound cavity is over 1"
    It's designed for use in a PDW. It's not a standard assault or battle rifle round, but for close quarters battle against both armored and unarmored targets it does the job well.
    I thought it wasn't so great a caliber either until I spent a weekend shooting the P90 and 5-7 and seeing firsthand what it can and cannot do. Since my training and work was in situations where the P90 would be beneficial, I see it as an effective tool over other calibers in those situations. Would it be a better choice than a .223 in a more open environment or against hardened barriors? Of course not but if it was a breech situation in a building or I was protecting someone in an environment with civilians near, it would be one of my top picks.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2005
  14. oakie

    oakie my ninja.

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    you danced all around it yet avoid to add 2 + 2 in a sad attempt to prove your point.

    unlike most other rifle rounds capable of defeating soft body armour, this one does it from a highly concealable and easily deployable pistol.
     
  15. Brian Fantana

    Brian Fantana New Member

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    If you put the 5.7 into the same places as the 9mm its will work better.
     
  16. D-FENS

    D-FENS New Member

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    If you want an SMG with armor piercing capabilities, use .30 Tokarev. Better penetration, and better terminal ballistics. Unfortunately, you never see it in anything modern.
     
  17. USMCsilver

    USMCsilver Active Member

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    Yep, sure is, but I really can't see where a CQB weapon chambered in 5.7 would be much more beneficial than a 5.56...
     
  18. Vermincelli

    Vermincelli Banned

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    Less chance for overpenetration, P90 being a bullpup is easier to manipulate in tight quarters, especially if you are with a team. 5.7 is much easier to control in auto. I found it to be real comfortable and easier to use. MP5 is prefered over an M4 for similar reasons.
     
  19. footratfunkface

    footratfunkface New Member

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    Bullpups are NOT good for one reason in close quarters: you can't shoot them left handed. If you have a lefty on the team, or if you need to switch to lefty for a tricky corner, you can't with a bullpup because of the ejection port. Magazines are also slower to change on bullpups. The P90 has a different style magazine, and I don't know how the speed compares to other mags. Plus, it's a larger capacity which lowers that worry quite a bit. Bullpups on the whole are easier to move around with. However, their trigger linkage will never allow the triggers to be as good as a regular rifle.

    The 5.7 round is ONLY good in the P90, where you can load a large burst into a body quickly with minimal spread in the group. In that case, the larger number of rounds makes up for the lower ballistic performance. On that note, there is no 5.7 round yet that performs the way it's been reported to by the manufacturer. Yes, they yaw. However, they don't fragment. In this manner, they're making a mildly larger wound cavity than 9mm, without the penetration into flesh. They don't stick 12". They have a very short neck and very quick yaw (SS190, the round that FN claims to be its magic bullet). The bullet itself is about .6" long, even though the whole round is about 1.6" long.

    From FN's site:

    [​IMG]

    Since the round doesn't fragment or deform, the largest possible permanent wound cavity the round can make is only a hair larger in diameter than .6" Hell, 9mm does that, and it does it in a tubular fashion, where the hole is that big all the way through. A yawing round makes a wave-like pattern, where parts of the hole will be .6" tall and 5.7mm wide, and the other parts will be 5.7mm in diameter, round. That's FN's own picture of SS190 in gel above. The big dramatic stuff you see is the temporary wound cavity. That does nothing to incapacitate someone. The permanent wound cavity is what does the deed, and it's tiny in this case. The round gets at most 26 cm of penetration. That's less than 10 1/4". That's bare gel. When you start adding clothing, penetration with a non-expanding rifle round goes way down. So, now you've got a round that, while it might go through IIIA armor, that's all it does. It doesn't do anything after that. That test on the gel above was bare gel. If you manage to put the round through IIIA armor, you're NOT going to even get the 10" they got in that test. And you can bet that the test they picture is the BEST one they found, and tested out of the P90, not the 5-7. When you test through the 5-7, the velocity will drop, performance will drop. Top all that off with the fact that the FBI came just short of calling FN a bunch of liars concerning their claims of the effectiveness of the SS190 round, and you have a round that SOUNDS nice in theory, but offers nothing over current rounds.

    Sure, it fits in a pistol, but what does that do? Now you have an ineffective pistol round. You can make pretty holes in IIIA armor, but not hard armor. 9mm can put holes in level II armor, which is the step below IIIA, but it actually performs ballistically afterward, and before that as well. The 5.7 round doesn't perform even when you DON'T shoot it through armor.

    Just because a weapon chambered in 5.7 is easier to use doesn't make the round more effective. Your comfort doesn't matter to the guy trying to kill you.
     
  20. Vermincelli

    Vermincelli Banned

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    :uh:Gee, guess my actual hands on experience with the weapon and the caliber are just flat out wrong.

    I can tell you from 10 years of experience that bullpups are great for CQB. The 90 ejects out the bottom so it's actually a better choice for left and right handed shooters and since the brass goes downward instead of into the teammate next to you, it makes it safer. As for magazine switching, I don't know what website you are reading, but I (and the members of my team) were able to switch mags just as quickly as with our M4s or MP5s. Have you actually shot any bullpups? Triggers are identical in feel.

    Since I actually shot over 2000 rounds out of both the P90 and the 5-7 into gel as well as actual meat (pig corpse), kevlar vests, helmets, drywall, plywood, vehicle glass and vehicle doors, I am going off actual experience with what it does and does not. How is it better than the 9mm? Simple. When the round hits, it tumbles, when it tumbles, it tears and rips the tissue much more effectivly than a standard pistol round. Gelatin doesn't show this because it's just that, Gelatin, not striated muscle and tissue like an actual body. It's not a magic bullet and I have never once heard FN nor the representatives that trained us say it was.

    As for 9mm and LII vests, you keep stating that they penetrate LII, but you fail to mention that it takes 1200 fps to do so (minus the Winchester silvertips). LII stops standard 9mm including black talons, speer lawmen, rangers, and I can vouch that it stops Federal Hydrashoks (that's what was shot at me). The 9mm rounds above 1200 will penetrate, but will only go about 2"-3" in and with no mushrooming due to the kevlar plugging the hollowpoint. The 5.7 on the other hand will penetrate 9" and since it still tumbles, it still creates a torn permanent cavity.

    Actually it does make it more effective. If you are able to place your shots CM quicker and easier with one weapon over another, then you have a more effective weapon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2005
  21. Vermincelli

    Vermincelli Banned

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    The website you quoted gives the reasons why it's a good CQB round.

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    Safety
    [/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The SS190 ammunition transfers nearly all of its energy to the target on impact, thus minimizing over-penetration and greatly reducing collateral risks to friendly / non-combattants.

    In contrast, a 9 mm round loses only 30% of its energy on the primary target and often causes unintended damage, well beyond the area of engagement.
    [/font]
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]High penetration hit[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]While a 9 mm FMJ round will not penetrate modern body armor, the SS190 round will penetrate modern fragmentation vests and helmets at ranges up to 200 meters.

    Any presently available soft body armor that allows reasonable mobility will be penetrated : military and other body armors, Kevlar® helmets and vests as well as the CRISAT protection (titanium/Kevlar®).

    The SS190 round will NOT penetrate protections that stop the 5.56 x 45 mm round ( steel plates, ceramic,...)
    [/font]



    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Low recoil[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The recoil impulse of the SS190 is only 1/3 of the 5.56 mm ball round and 2/3 of the 9 mm ball round.

    It is easier to fire rapid aimed shots, as the sight remains on target. In the full auto mode, the low recoil significantly increases the controllability and the accuracy of the weapon.
    [/font]

    http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    [/font]
     
  22. Goat

    Goat That crack is really moreish

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    I heard 9mm just bounces off major organs :eek3:
     
  23. The Dread Pirate

    The Dread Pirate New Member

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    Why would you want a 5.7? It has horrible terminal ballistics.
     
  24. 7

    7 First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.

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    :uh:
     
  25. Vermincelli

    Vermincelli Banned

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    My guess...he didn't read the other posts.
     

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