GUN Help be rebutt this nonsense

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Dumbstixlars, Dec 15, 2007.

  1. Dumbstixlars

    Dumbstixlars Ron Paul/AR-15/Glock/old car/Scooby/R/C croo OT Supporter

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    Sent to me by an anti at work in response to the anti-gun male post that I sent to him the other day.

     
  2. Jurisbot Esq.

    Jurisbot Esq. Don't blame me I voted for Ron Paul. OT Supporter

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    The people that have mental illness that really want to get guns will either resort to stealing them or buying them on the black market. Pretty much the same argument for the other two points. The high-capacity magazines are already there, the price will rise and cause it to go underground. Same for "assault" weapons.
     
  3. Keesh

    Keesh New Member

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    I wonder how many of those gun homicides are with legal guns. Criminals will turn in their guns the same day drug dealers stop selling drugs because it's illegal.
     
  4. KNYTE

    KNYTE I'm Not Kidding.

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    Same anti-gun arguments that have been used a thousand times over.
     
  5. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    There are truly some tragic gun deaths each year, of course there also tragic pool accidents each year. We accept the recreational value of the value over the slim chance of an accident just like we recnognize the need for people to have firearms to defend themselves. Have you looked to see how many of those gun deaths each day are gang, drug, or crime related? You might be shocked http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/circumsttab.htm The 13 year old that was killed, was killed because he shot at the police after stealing a car. He wouldn't be a fine upstanding young man today if he didn't have a gun, he would still be a criminal with no regard for the lives of others. It is a shame his life turned out that way but I wouldn't feel any better with him loose on the streets today where he could try to kill people with different weapons.

    Why should I have to go through a background check to buy a piece of property from another private individual just because we met at a gun show? Is it really any different if I meet them through an ad in the newspaper? Do you think criminals will be stopped by background checks? They're criminals, they're break the law to get what they want. If it was as easy as just making it illegal the war on drugs would be a huge success.

    Can you provide statistics showing what success the assault weapons ban was? So far I've been unable to find what crime it stopped. Did you know that in 2006 there were 14,990 homicides in the US, 10,177 committed with firearms, and of those 436 committed with rifes, both regular non-scary looking hunting rifles and scary looking "assault rifles." http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_07.html Is that 2.9% of homicides really what we should be focusing on or should be we be trying to figure out why people are killing each other to begin with?

    Why would you think the pizza man was killed by a gun? He was killed by criminals that wanted his money and to cause him harm. Would you really feel better if they collapsed his head with a baseball bat instead or just beaten to death since he was out numbered by guys probably younger than him? Delivery guys are notorious targets for crime, lets allow them to carry concealed weapons so they have a chance when they're ganged up on by thugs.

    Why would you say that no one needs an "assault weapon" for self defense? Most police in the country carry a scary black rifle in their car because it is a great self defense weapon. The 2nd amendment isn't just about hunting or self defense though, its about having a country with citizens armed as well as its soldiers so they they deter a government from turning tyrannical and can over through such a government if necessary. While the need to do so seems remote today, a major western European government killed millions and millions of its own people less than 70 years ago. I doubt those people thought their government would ever turn so corrupt as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2007
  6. Clingman

    Clingman Clingman runs Bartertown.

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    The bottom line is bad guys will get guns. Here in Houston people have been caught with firearms stolen out of the fucking police evidence room.

    The AWB was a complete failure, people who argue for it just don't understand what it did. I show people pictures of an SAR1 with no brake or bayo lug, then a pic of a new WASR10, and challenge them to tell me which was banned.

    I have no argument against the mental health restrictions.

    We don't have a problem with guns. We have a problem with criminals who are emboldened by our broke ass justice system.
     
  7. Dumbstixlars

    Dumbstixlars Ron Paul/AR-15/Glock/old car/Scooby/R/C croo OT Supporter

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    Soy, your reply FTW man.
     
  8. idleprocess

    idleprocess Bring a dollar with you baby in the cold cold grou

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    I note that screed conveniently ignores the many more times daily that someone uses a gun to defend themselves or others - oftentimes without firing a shot.
     
  9. vwpilot

    vwpilot New Member

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    Just tell them they're right. We've seen how making drugs illegal has kept them off our streets and out of the hands of criminals. It will probably work just as well with the guns.
     
  10. hsmith

    hsmith OT Supporter

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    lol @ anti's
     
  11. MTech

    MTech New Member

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    I'm in Pittsburgh and would like to point out that Pizza shop is in the fucking hood and the next 2 guys who replaced the man shot were also shot and the Pizza shop has since closed down.....

    Lesson? - Don't deliver pizzas in the hood. and let your drivers carry for protection so this shit doesn't happen.


    as for

    *Improve databases. No one with a history of mental illness as profound as the Virginia Tech shooter's should be able to buy guns legally, as he did, twice. Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine took an important step Monday, moving to ensure that the state includes mental illness findings in the instant background checks gun buyers usually undergo. A bill in Congress would require other states to follow and give them resources they need to do it.

    --Correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure they pointed out that this asshat wasn't legally allowed to buy those guns and some how attained them. However the libs. want to make it so when you go in for a physical if the doc is a socialist faggot or a bug up his ass he can make note and have it so you can't buy guns anymore.



    *Renew the assault weapons ban. This 1994 law, which outlawed or restricted military-style semiautomatic weapons and high-capacity magazines, expired in 2004 when President Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress declined to renew it.

    Experienced shooters can swap out smaller magazines in seconds, but in at least two high-profile incidents, one in front of the White House and one on a Long Island commuter train, gunmen were stopped while reloading. Besides, no one needs an assault weapon for hunting or self-defense.

    -- So we're supposed to not do anything about the people going nuts and shooting, but instead encourage them to do so and hope they abide by laws on smaller mags so that we have a split second to run and tackle the guy while he reloads.......
    --- the same split second that would offer any legally carrying person to shoot the son of a bitch dead and end the killing spree and make sure our tax dollars aren't wasted sending him to court so he can claim he was mentally insane and get off easy by more liberal law thinking...

    I don't do drugs but this is an interesting point.. Republicans go off about drugs and used false propaganda back in the day to terrify people of drugs and get them banned... Obviously the laws don't work, and now we're actually finding medical uses for some of the drugs.... it's also been pointed out that other countries have nowhere near the drug problems as we do..because they are legal and it's not such a big thing to do over there...
    The liberals seem to be noted as been the hippies and more pro legalization on Weed..

    than you look at Liberals who take away our rights and freedoms (freedom of speech and right to bare arms..) and it's the Republicans who want to fight to give us that right...

    You also have Liberals who want to let you kill babies (abortion) but these same liberals don't want you to kill criminals murderers/rapists ect... they want to give them a pat ont he wrist and let them go or keep them locked up for their lives providing nothing productive and eat away our tax dollars or often escaping to only do what they do more.

    interesting to see the big issues the two fight over..
     
  12. Dumbstixlars

    Dumbstixlars Ron Paul/AR-15/Glock/old car/Scooby/R/C croo OT Supporter

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    Well he replied to Soy's statement with this:

     
  13. P07r0457

    P07r0457 New Member

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    iirc, columbine occured during the assault-weapons ban. Therefore, we have PROOF that the ban does NOT work to prevent crime, and it DOES restrict freedoms of the law-abiding citizen.
     
  14. idleprocess

    idleprocess Bring a dollar with you baby in the cold cold grou

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    Your anti- friend makes all sorts of interesting psychological assumptions that the statistics wholeheartedly refute. Gun owners tend to be pretty stable emotionally, are rarely "compensating," and typically have a much more realistic sense of what can be done with firearms in a real-world scenario.

    The profile of the anti- as a frightened passive-aggressive individual projecting their fears and irresponsibilities onto others on the other hand is a bit more in line with reality. Guns are a far more powerful, awe-inspiring symbol to the average anti- than they are to a gun owner.

    I'm curious why he's so worked up about CHL holders carrying. I'd rather be fully informed whenever someone is carrying one of those freaking Gideon bibles concealed on their person since that's much more likely to effect me in any given situation than a CHL holder, but I'll readily admit that's just as irrational as the anti-'s view...

    Given that there are millions of CHL holders out there (presumably) packing regularly and they almost never "go off" in the melodramatic fashion that anti-s are oft worrying about, one has to wonder what the hell they're so afraid of? CHL holders have far lower crime rates than the otherwise well-behaved general public. In the event they draw their weapon, their hit statistics and injured bystanders numbers are typically better than law enforcement.

    I guess what gets me is the general failure of the average anti- to appreciate why you want those gun nuts that you're so afraid of to have guns. A gun owner - and especially a CHL holder - appreciates many of the immediate ramifications of gun ownership and usage. Unlike criminals, they live above board. Criminals often do not have drivers licenses, return addresses, or any real stake in society - unlike the gun nut that the anti- targets. A CHL holder is generally motivated not only to protect their person and people close to them, but also to act responsibly if it comes down to it.

    Criminals, on the other hand, simply damage society through their behavior. They also ignore most laws since staying out of jail is not as powerful a motivation for them as it is the rest of society. Criminals will break laws if it is advantageous to them, gun laws being rather commonly ignored. There is just a certain lack of respect for the rest of humanity present in all criminals and that is what makes them dangerous to the rest of us that obey the rules.
     
  15. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    Forgive me if this is short, I have a job interview in the morning :big grin: His phrasing is somewhat odd too so if I misunderstood his point, edit as appropriate

    Regarding citizens versus their government, it is much easier for someone to do harm to someone that doesn't have the ability to fight back. Rounding up helpless citizens to have terrible things done to them can go from "just following orders" to risking your life when those citizens fight back. Assuming it was a futile struggle and you were one of those citizens, wouldn't you still want to be able to resist? I suspect there were many people who would have rather fired at the Nazis rather than hide from them and hope for the best. As far as the power of the military, you're assuming entire cities would be blown up and that would be that. The PR problem of obvious mass killing of your citizens aside, the real problem would be millions of armed people everywhere mixed in with everyone else using guerrilla tactics. These are the same techniques that have caused such a tremendous problem for our very advanced and skilled army in Iraq. Perhaps part of the insight the framers had with the second amendment was that a citizenship that is capable of fighting back will be less likely to actually need to fight back.

    You say that firearms don't protect you but I'm not sure how you arrived there. When you're in trouble do you call the people with guns to come protect you? You speculate on genitals and guns and insecurity but it looks like baseless nonsense to me. Lets look at actual real world numbers and test your claim. A study by FSU criminologist Gary Kleck called Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun, published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology puts the number of times a gun is used defensively in the US each year approximately 2 million times. A prior study by the Department of Justice called Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms placed the number at 1.5 million times. While you are free to speculate and play make believe about the actual number of times guns are used for defense, I'll stick with real data. Do you have real data showing that guns aren't used for self defense?

    On a side note do you truly believe that you can't stop a criminal and are helpless to them? What magic power does that person have that prevents you from resisting them?

    You claim gun owners have an attaction to violence and don't use their guns in self defense. Could you show some data to back to that up? In Florida there have been 1.1 million concealed carry licenses issued since 1987, and 157 (0.01%) revoked due to firearm crimes by licensees. Here are conviction rates for Texas concealed carry permit holders http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm Wikipedia has more statistics linked if you're interested. North Carolina reports 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law — a lower proportion than the crime rate among North Carolina police officers. Revocation of license is for any criminal conviction, and need not involve an illegal firearm usage. Revocations typically arise from DUI. Of the 14,000 licenses issued in Oregon, only 4 individuals (0.03%) were convicted of criminal (though not necessarily violent) use or possession of a firearm. Lets see your work. You claim gun owners are unsafe and eager for violence, there's a bunch of gun owners who go even further and carry firearms with them out in public through all the emotionally volatile situations of life. Why aren't they acting the way you imagine they do?

    I'm not sure what homestead protection from creditors has to do with gun control but perhaps if you object to homeowners having creditor protection for allowed things you need to write your legislator. I'd be more upset about the provisions allowing a person to keep jewerly, bicycles, weight sets, home furnishings, 4 wheelers, and jewelry than the $600 worth of firearms you described.

    Many states do in fact allow gun owners to openly carry their guns in public and some do. I would support you writing your legislator asking for the same to be allowed in Texas as well. You may want to know if I'm carrying a firearm but I'm under no more obligation to tell you that than I am to let you know if I'm having a boxers or briefs day. Besides its not the guys who are legally carrying weapons you need to be concerned about, its the ones that would carry them no matter if allowed to or not. Perhaps we could ask them to wear a little sign on their coat identifying themselves or pass a law stating they need to inform us 5 minutes prior to any acts of violence against us.

    Your opinions are based on nothing but supposition and your imagination. I notice you didn't come back with any numbers supporting why the assault weapons ban worked or was even necessary. I notice you didn't comment on the absurdity of criminals and background checks. I notice you didn't comment on the idea that the thugs who robbed the old delivery man could have use any weapon or no weapons at all do so. I'm willing to debate this issue with you but if you bring up a point you should be prepared to defend it. All you're doing is coming up with new idea after new idea after your points are refuted. If you want to have a serious discussion make some arguments that you can stand behind and do so. Also I wouldn't make assumptions on my political ideology based on issue. This isn't high school, "go my team go" ended a long ago.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2007
  16. feetball

    feetball New Member

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    LArz, How about you and Tony stop spending time coming up with arguments via email at work and actually do some work???


    :wavey:
     
  17. Dumbstixlars

    Dumbstixlars Ron Paul/AR-15/Glock/old car/Scooby/R/C croo OT Supporter

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    I'm in Hungary bish. Besides, it's 10:40AM there, wtf are you doing posting? Design some shit!
     
  18. Aequitas

    Aequitas If it keeps on raining, levee's going to break.

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    Send him the anti-gun male that I posted a few days ago, seems perfect for him.
     
  19. Dumbstixlars

    Dumbstixlars Ron Paul/AR-15/Glock/old car/Scooby/R/C croo OT Supporter

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    Believe it or not, thats what started it.
     
  20. cabriolet

    cabriolet ...

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    And believe it or not, he already posted that's what started it...


    ...in the first line. :o
     
  21. PanzerAce

    PanzerAce Active Member

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    I like this stat, got it from a LEO friend re: NFA stuff (I don't have the actual data, but this is what I heard), of all the MGs that are registered, only TWO have been used to commit a crime, and one of those was by a police officer.
     
  22. Paul Revere

    Paul Revere OT Supporter

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    yeah, i think something happened with his daughter so he used a mac10 or uzi or something to go kill the guy, then promptly turned himself in
     
  23. Aequitas

    Aequitas If it keeps on raining, levee's going to break.

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    :doh:
     
  24. feetball

    feetball New Member

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    so how did it work?
     
  25. Dumbstixlars

    Dumbstixlars Ron Paul/AR-15/Glock/old car/Scooby/R/C croo OT Supporter

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    Dunno yet, sent it to him late, been working and forgot about it. It doesn't really matter. There will be no convincing him. He told me that if someone broke into his house and threatened him, he'd let them do whatever they want. How do you argue with that kind of hopelessness?
     

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