GUN Handgun Retention

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by KWIK MAXX, Apr 20, 2005.

  1. KWIK MAXX

    KWIK MAXX New Member

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    Well I've been using my Blackhawk CQC Sherpa holster for over a month now, much better that my Fobus:naughty:

    [​IMG]
     
  2. mtnbike4522

    mtnbike4522 CelicaTech.com

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    I use an uncle mikes with a custom made belt clip
     
  3. TwoGuns

    TwoGuns Medical Crew

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    What do you like more about it than your Fobus?
     
  4. GunShow

    GunShow You had best unfuck yourself

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    Bought one for my Glock 19 and have been happy with it so far. Its a surprisingly well made holster for only $40.
     
  5. KWIK MAXX

    KWIK MAXX New Member

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    What I really like is the retention device :bigthumb: The draw on my Fobus is really quick, but I sometimes fell that if I ran very fast or if I fell, my Sig would pop right out.:eek4:
     
  6. TwoGuns

    TwoGuns Medical Crew

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    That's why you do the "shake over a carpeted area vigorously" test. :bigthumb:
     
  7. spyder007

    spyder007 Bаnned bу Ѕuреr Μоdеrаtоrs

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    It's a sad day when anyone CCW'ing needs to worry about weapon retention. I learned a whole bunch of retention and takeaway's in the academy, but that's about it.
     
  8. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    i think of it more as an issue of trip and fall retention rather than aggressor retention. But anyone carrying a gun on a regular basis should have at least some idea what to do in a grab attempt, whether they're LE or not.
     
  9. This holster is a deathtrap. It should be withdrawn from the market. But, of course, it's Blackhawk...so it'll be around for way to long.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2005
  10. bagged

    bagged monsta truck

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    well you have invested all 3 of your posts wisely grasshopper :nono:
     
  11. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    Expound?
     
  12. oakie

    oakie my ninja.

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    yes, because a person's wisdom is proportional to their post count. :hsugh:
     
  13. What do you expect to happen when you apply pressure with the trigger finger?

    The gun should go bang, right?

    Guess what happens when you get someone under stress and they have to draw from a holster which requires them to apply pressure with their trigger finger to get the gun out of the holster?

    'Things in motion tend to stay in motion', right?

    After hitting the release button, the finger contacts the trigger and the gun goes bang. If the shooter is lucky, they simply fire an early shot in the intended direction. If they are unlucky they fire a round into their own thigh!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2005
  14. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    I agree with this 100%. Blackhawk should take this holster off the market immediately.

    Two stories I know of personally:
    1. Male student with at least one hundred hours of formal firearms training involved in a formal FOF exercise fired a round into his leg while drawing under mild stress. It was an airsoft gun and there was only some ego damage and slight leg bruising to deal with.

    2. Female student with 40-50 prior hours of formal handgun training taking a 3 day advanced handgun class shot herself in the thigh. This occurred the first shot of the third day of class. For the prior two days she used another holster but wanted to train using her new Blackhawk holster. She survived but shattered 10 inches of her femur.

    YES, it's a training issue BUT the holster design lends itself to inward pressure being applied by the trigger finger during the draw stroke. As soon as the gun clears the holster the trigger finger is primed to inadvertently depress the trigger.

    If you are thinking about buying this holster, don't. If you own this holster, throw it away.

    I'm just some dumbass internet know-it-all, but I know a tiny bit about firearms, gear and training. This is one of the worst "innovations" in holster design to ever come along. It will be a factor in many more maimings and a few deaths.
     
  15. TwoGuns

    TwoGuns Medical Crew

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    I'll take any of these holsters you folks are planning on throwing away, thanks. :)
     
  16. GunShow

    GunShow You had best unfuck yourself

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    Have any of you who are bashing the Blackhawk holster actually used it? When you draw your weapon from the holster the finger naturally lands on the slide not the trigger gaurd. Having actually used the holster in stressful situations I can tell you from experience that it is not the death trap people are claiming it to be. That being said I have switched to a the Safariland 6004, because I feel their product better suits my needs.
     
  17. Vermincelli

    Vermincelli Banned

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    GET OFF MY LAWN!
    I have tried it and while MY finger lands on the trigger guard, it is still under pressure so if my grip was not properly set, it could put my finger inside the guard, under pressure. If I had small hands it would be easier. I am not a fan of these holsters simply because shit happens and this design makes that shit easier to happen. Why risk it?
     
  18. The design harkens back to the old 'clamshell' holsters...The big difference is that with a clamshell, you shoved the gun forward rather than lifted up, so the finger was not travelling back onto the trigger as the gun moved. The Serpa holster design is begging inadvertant firing of the gun. If you do everything right, no problem. If you do it less than perfect, potentially BIG PROBLEM. The potential for the Big Problem is significantly greater than with other holster designs and the perceived advantages of the Serpa are not worth the very real disadvantages.
     
  19. KWIK MAXX

    KWIK MAXX New Member

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    You only apply pressure for the initial release....as you draw the weapon you actually have to release pressure from the trigger finger to clear the release mech.

    Also the direction of travel for the pressure is laterally and not directly back to activate the trigger.

    "an object that is put into motion, but then required to back off does not tend to stay in motion."

    After hitting the release button you do not continue to apply pressure with your trigger finger:nono:
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2005
  20. KWIK MAXX

    KWIK MAXX New Member

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    I personally think that airsoft is an excellent tool for FOF training but it does not tend to be a completly accurate guage for neglent or unintentional discharge. All of the airsoft handguns that I have tried (about 20) all have grossly underweight triggerpulls when compared to the "real steel" also many of them do not have all of the functioning safeguards of the "real steel"

    You are correct training is the issue, the release mech. is not as intuitive as it would appear to be and it does take some practice to become accustomed to it. A light inward pressure is required to release the mech. and a release of that pressure is required during the draw stroke.


    Please send any unwanted holsters to myself or twoguns:bigthumb:
     
  21. Kwik,

    What is your training background? The reason I ask is, I've seen a few of these holsters around and I've spoken with at least 1/2 dozen trainers regarding this design and no one with much of a clue seems to think these are a worthwhile design.

    Of course, this being the internet, everyone is an expert and entitled to their opinion,but have you used this holster in aggressive force-on-force work?
     
  22. KWIK MAXX

    KWIK MAXX New Member

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    Rats,

    My formal training has consisted @ 16 hours of handgun training and and probably 100+ hours of informal training.

    Even though this is the internet and everyone is an expert I will be the first to admit that I am no expert.

    I manage a security firm and many of my employees are former or current LEO. I have been fortunate to have their guidance in most of the training exercises the we do for our employees.

    I have actually used the holster in FOF exercises and have found it to be no different or more prone to accidential discharge than any other holster. If I was to apply continious pressure the the release mech. during the draw stroke (which you don't) it would end up on the side of the frame, above the trigger and not in a position to fire. If I was to apply continious pressure the the release mech. during the draw stroke (again, which you don't) and it did end up on the trigger, I would never be able to overcome the 8+ lbs. DA pull of my duty weapon (Sig P220) unless I was intending to fire. Even with the KJW airsoft Beretta (3 lbs. DA) which I used in the FOF exercises with my buddies Sherpa holster did not have problems with accidental discharges.

    I feel that most people with a clue would agree that a FOF exercises would have the greatest chance for accidental discharges and I would argue that it is too easy to blame the holster for a problem that should be attributed to the user.
     
  23. No one is claiming that the end-users are not responsible for their own actions, but the holster design is such that the likelihood of a negligent discharge appears to increase significantly when this holster is used. A design which increases the likelihood of a 'bad thing' while offering very little 'real world' advantage would seem to be questionable at best.

    Both of the incidents that SMN referenced in his post involved students with significant training backgrounds, so I do not think it is fair to pin in the NDs on operator incompetance.

    You say you've used the holster in F-o-F events & found it to be no different than other designs, but you also admit that you've only been running that holster for a month and only have a total of 100 or so hours of informal training and 16hrs of 'handgun training'. That really is not much of a base of experience.

    FYI, I've logged 350 hours annually in 'informal training' with a small, dedicated group working intergrated skills for the last three years. I've attended over 1000 hours of training with private sector trainers in the last 5 years. And I've been involved in F-o-F for so long that I couldn't even begin to figure out how many scenarios I've participated in &/or observed.

    I think the holster is a very bad idea.
     
  24. ShackleMeNot

    ShackleMeNot MINDSET

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    And now I figured out who Rats is...

    One of the most switched-on mother fuckers I know.

    Welcome Rats.
     
  25. Oops, I guess I forgot to let you know I was crawling around.:big grin:

    Thanks for the welcome!
     

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