SRS GUYS! Drop the "Nice Guy" act, it's time to grow up!

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by DiggityDogg, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. DiggityDogg

    DiggityDogg Guest

    I've just recently came to this forum and I have seen a lot of guys-who are probably good guys-having some serious girl problems. These problems are primarily of their own doing, whether it be from their own inexperience, from the misconceptions that women give us, or just from plain old lack of self respect.

    The first thing I want to clear up, is the idea that women want jerks and the nice guy finishes last. This is a huge misconception that naive guys always think is the truth of the situation when the reality is something different. The fault for such thinking is not soley resting on these naive guys shoulders, but also on the shoulders of women. Why? Women are not always honest to these guys because they don't want to hurt these guys feelings by telling the truth-probably because they are close friends with these guys.

    The truth of the Jerk vs Nice Guy crud is very simple. Women don't like to be treated bad by jerks, but they end up with a lot of guys like that because they cannot be attracted to a guy who has no self respect, and nor should she.
    A woman needs a guy to be a partner with in a relationship, she needs someone who is an equal to her and challenges her just as she challenges him. The problem with a lot of these Nice Guys is that they worship the women they love. These guys tend to think that there are a lot of Jerks out there and they will show this girl what a real Nice Guy can do, and they will do anything they can in a constant attempt to prove that. That comes across as very insecure. If you are a Nice Guy, she will learn this about you without your effort. The problem with this is that these guys will do anything for her and treat her like an angel, putting her needs ahead of his own. Therein lies the problem. If you basically give up you own needs and wants to give her everything, you are becoming a pushover doormat. A guy with no self respect, an insecure guy who feels that to prove his love he has to put her ahead in everything. The ultimate result backfires because no woman needs their significant other to hold them on a pedastle and worship them. They need a equal partner, someone who challenges them and can grow with them.

    The type of guy that has self respect doesn't always put her needs first because he is an individual as well. He too has goals and plans of his own, and he is going to do them. A self respecting guy doesn't feel the need to do whatever she wants because he knows he loves her and he knows that she knows this as well. He doesn't have to prove it to her. Also, a self respecting guy doesn't lay down for her when she does something wrong, or forgive her for whatever she does without giving her hell for it. A self respecting guy doesn't say, "You hurt me when you cheated on me baby, but I love you and I forgive you." He says, "If you cheat on me, then you don't love me the way I deserve to be loved. That is not the relationship I want, so it's over."
    This guy does not aplogize for himself when he has done no wrong. If she gets mad at him for something he didn't do, he is not going to pull the Nice Guy routine of apologizing to make it all better, he stands up for himself. He won't be disrespected even if it costs him the relationship, because if it does cost the relationship then that girl wasn't a good enough girlfriend to begin with.

    The Nice Guy fears losing his girl on a pedastle, so even if he is wronged, he tries to make it better and to patch things up. That is the kind of behavior that will make her eventually lose all respect for you and she will cheat on you or leave you.

    Maybe now you can see where the Jerk confusion comes into play. Ever wonder why a girl says that she and her boyfriend got into a fight and that her boyfriend is a jerk, only to go right back to him with even greater fervor than before? I bet that made you confused and frustrated as hell, and you think that women must like jerks. Chances are that he was not a jerk after all, but instead wouldn't back down to some bullshit she pulled and she is frustrated and upset about it. But... she respects him. He's a mans man.
    Now there really are some jerks out there, but a lot of the time it is just a guy who won't tolerate being treated like crap or disrespected. A guy like that is attractive because self confidence IS an attractive quality. A guy who always apologizes for himself is not attractive because he lacks that confidence and self respect. He NEEDS her attention so bad to be happy that he does anything he can to please her, and that is seriously pathetic. In fact, this behavior only sends the signal to the girl that she can use him and do whatever she wants, he will always forgive her. How can you respect that? How can you ask HER to respect that?

    I used an analogy on the initiation forum to relate to a lot of guys who may be inexperiences with dating. The analogy comes from Star Wars. Yes, I know... but it surprisingly is a good one.
    Think about it. Star Wars has two trilogies, and two love stories. The original series has Han Solo and Princess Leia. The new trilogy has Anakin Skywalker and Senator Padme.
    Han Solo is a mans man, a self respecting guy. He has strong feelings for Princess Leia, but the two clash all of the time. Does Han apologize for himself? Does he fear that Leia won't like him if she thinks he is a jerk? No. In fact, Han goes so far as to call her out quite a bit when she is asking for it. Is Han Solo a jerk? I bet Princess Leia would have told her wussy clingy guy friend that he was. But Leia respected Han, Leia loved Han.
    Then there is Anakin. From the very begining Anakin shows his needy clingy wussy side, and it's pretty annoying. Do we doubt that Anakin loved Padme? No. But there was a reason why the critics slammed this love story, it was because it lacked something. I'd say it is not very believable because Padme wouldn't have liked Anakin. Her falling for him was unbelievable because it just wasn't realistic. Anakin whined to Obi Wan about how he needed to be near her, how she was intoxicating. Anakin professed how much love he had to her, spilling his guts like a schoolboy and basically looking helpless to his feelings for her. It was pathetic. There was even a scene where someone asked Anakin for his opinion on a subject and Padme cuts him off, disrespecting him. Anakin starts to challenge her but once she gets angry he apologizes. She wronged him and he apologizes. Anakin is the Nice Guy, Han is the Jerk. I'd rather be Han, wouldn't you? If you respect yourself you would. If you want a fulfilling real relationship you would.

    That's a lot of information so I'll stop for now.
     
  2. bandwagon

    bandwagon Copy/Paste

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    A+++

    Cliffs: Start being men. Women are not attracted to wussies.
     
  3. DiggityDogg

    DiggityDogg Guest

    Hollow, there are always exceptions to the rule so of course I am not speaking for all females, but I find it pretty pointless to consider exceptions to the rule when the rule itself is so prominant. Plus, this is just common sense and a lot of guys simply have never had it spelled out to them before. Probably in part because Nice Guys always seem to ask women for advice about their women and/or dating problems. Isn't that what part of the problem was to begin with? These guys were confused by some girl and her use of "womanese"? So why do they go to another woman for interpretation? Seems kind of silly to me.

    Especially when you take a step back and really consider things. Who has demonstrated more contradictions and mixed signals than women when it comes to dating? Why is it that a woman tells you all that she wants, and when you give it to her she leaves? Why is it that girls say they don't like jerks, but complain about a jerk boyfriend that they keep going back to?
    The problem a lot of times is that a woman doesn't want to hurt your feelings and will tell you something that isn't completely true to let you down easy. Nice Guys have a tendency to believe everything she says.
     
  4. jshively

    jshively OT Supporter

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    Everyone confuses nice with be a freaking doormat. Seriously being nice is 1 thing and being a doormat is another.

    I am a nice guy. I treat women with respect, open doors, call to say hi, send flowers or small gifts randomly, apologize if I truly did make a mistake, cook her dinner, and all that stuff people label as being a nice guy. Do I ever have a problem getting a date. Nope in fact I am very selective of who I date. However, I don't cancel my plans if my girlfriend wants to see me unless it is an urgent matter. I don't compromise my morales or beliefs if asked. I will stand up for myself if I view myself being treated less than how I deserve to be treated.

    If we were to break up yes I would be hurt however, the last thing I would do is call her to talk or try and convince her to be with me. I would realize her decision is what she wants and there is nothing I can do to change her. I have shown exactly who I am and who I am going to be. If that is what she wants than fine there is someone else out there who will appreciate me and I will probably thank her for not wasting anymore of my time.

    Now a doormat will bend himself to be that person he is with. His backbone and values will dissappear and he will become his love interest thinking she wants someone exactly like him. If that person was to leave him his world would virtually dissappear since all he knows is her. There is no confidence and no allure.

    I believe every guy goes through a nice guy phase and he will blame atleast atleast one girl to messing him over. Some guys in turn will take that hurt and go to the ultimate extreme of they don't want to get hurt and so by making themselves emotionally unavailable and get the jerk label.

    I believe the reason guys turn into the doormat and jerk is simple immaturity and also the simple fact he has no clue what he wants not the woman messing him over. If he truly knew what he wanted out of the relationship or how he should be treated he would see the warning signs ahead of time and get out of it. Instead he does not because he can't since he does not want to hurt her feelings or he feels bad for her (doormat qualities).

    I also believe most women goes through a phase where they believe they can change the jerk. They will learn this is a fuitile effort and look for the nice guy. Once the nice guy is found they will appreciate what he has to bring to the table because they have dated the jerk and thus the nice guy does come ahead in the end.
     
  5. DiggityDogg

    DiggityDogg Guest

    Of course not all guys who are nice are doormats. I thought that was pretty clear. The Nice Guy however is a label that I am placing on the doormat guy because he is usually the guy who complains that he is so nice to girls and all they want are jerks. The Nice Guy is almost a self described label.

    I prefer to call the guys who are nice yet have a backbone, gentleman. You can be a gentleman to a girl and still be able to locate your balls. The Nice Guy lost his pair a long time again and someone needs to help him find them...
     
  6. JordanClarkson

    JordanClarkson OT Supporter

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    Don't compromise who you are. Your integrity is worth more than getting laid. I'd do anything for anyone, not just girls but total strangers as well. It's just the way that I am.

    The problem with nice guys isn't that they are pushovers. It's that they don't know how to flirt. Flirting is like a cat and mouse chase. You both play both roles at different times. It's a game of give and take. Nice guys like to give give give. What they need to do is learn to fish. Put out some bait for her. If she latches onto it, reel her in but be prepared for her to fight against you.

    But be consistent and constant. Girls will get bored if you're not flirting.

    I think guys get way too caught up in getting laid though. If a girl doesn't like you, learn to enjoy her company as a friend.
     
  7. DiggityDogg

    DiggityDogg Guest

    I think what you meant to say was: "The problem with nice guys isn't just that they are pushovers. It's that they don't know how to flirt."
    Which I would agree with. It also wasn't really the point of the thread. The guys posting their problems on here that I have read about usually already have the girl, but lost her.
     
  8. jshively

    jshively OT Supporter

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    I like gentlemen. A good friend of mine and I had this discussion at the gym. He is in a relationship where he is noticing that she is not appreciating or recriprocating all the hard work that he is doing. He came to this realization only a couple weeks in and is now getting out of the relationship. His comment to me was I wish I could learn to just be the a**hole who does not care. However, I told him that to me it is more important that I can wake up in the morning and know I stayed true to myself and who I am inheritanly am. Granted even as gentlemen we are going to get hurt and crushed but well that is part of any relationship.
     
  9. jshively

    jshively OT Supporter

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    See to me the jerk is the guy whose only focus is to get laid. He does the tricks to do it and does them well. To me a relationship is not about getting laid.

    Spontanity and keeping them guessing is everything.
     
  10. hondaluva

    hondaluva likes free hugs...

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    I believe that both sexes lose out when you start to basically simplify people as simply "nice guy" or "asshole"

    I have much better nouns/adjectives to describe me as.


    Also, i could be both at the same time. If i am being me, what one girl may consider to be a nice guy, another one may consider me to be an asshole. Thats why i don't worry about it.
     
  11. bandwagon

    bandwagon Copy/Paste

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    Digging deeper, I think that the feminization of males and the masculinization of females is causing lots of social problems these days.

    Men are wussies, and cry during breakups, and women are fucking everything they see and not giving a shit.

    Maybe this should be in On Topic.
     
  12. DiggityDogg

    DiggityDogg Guest

    You're analyzing too much. It's actually very simple and isn't meant to describe exactly who someone is, so don't try to take it that way. A large amount of guys let people, ESPECIALLY WOMEN, walk all over them. They don't even realize they are doing it because they view it as the nice thing to do. That's what I am talking about here so don't tie yourself up on terms such as Nice Guy and Jerk, because the terms themselves are not the point. The point is the situation guys like this allow themselves to get into, and how they need to start taking back control of their lives.

    This also isn't about changing who you are, but again, about taking back control. A lot of guys like this get frustrated and instantly assume that they are supposed to start being jerks. If anyone actually read what I was saying, they would understand that train of thought is wrong. You don't need to become a jerk, but what you need to do is tone down your selflessness. Selflessness isn't always nice or the right thing to do, but these guys tend to make a habit of it. These guys need to grow a backbone and stand up for themselves, they need to work on developing their self respect. Doing this does not compromise who you are, but strengthens it.
     
  13. JordanClarkson

    JordanClarkson OT Supporter

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    That's the result of the women's rights movement. Guys have changed. They are now able to accept strong opinionated women and some even prefer it because those women are now viewed as intelligent. Deep down guys would rather not have to live up to a certain stereotype anyway...it's a huge burden to carry that is probably the reason for us not living as long as them.

    But women have not changed their needs one bit. They still desire strong men and anytime a man doesn't act strong she loses respect for him. You either have to both play stereotypical roles or have a balance and accept it. A balance means a certain amount of unpredictability which is going to make it a lot tougher.
     
  14. naughtie

    naughtie New Member

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    :bowdown:
     
  15. tefnut

    tefnut build

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    Sharp women are the best.


    About this thread... generally speaking, in any type of social interaction, people prefer to deal with strong, confident, assertive personalities. So obviously it more or less extends to romance as well. There are of course rare domination-type exceptions, but if you're into that kind of stuff you should take it to Freakyshiat forum :hsugh:
     
  16. JordanClarkson

    JordanClarkson OT Supporter

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    Oh...yeah, I'm already there ;)

    Everyone is strong in their own way but obvious strength can be very seductive. But you also have to consider what comes with it. A strong woman might be much more career oriented than you're comfortable with. She'll put her career first above all else. Same thing with a man. Every positive trait is going to have an equal negative and vise versa. You just have to figure out if you're willing to accept someone for both their qualities and their faults.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2005
  17. themacstallion

    themacstallion The electric sheep are dreaming up your fate

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    A+, but as you know im sure, there are always exceptions.
     
  18. PocoDiablo

    PocoDiablo New Member

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    I agree with much of what has been said here, but I always get annoyed by the "Nice guy versus asshole" arguement. Come on folks, that is too black and white. I have come to the conclusion that there are at least three variations of guys:

    Doormats
    Nice guys
    Gentlemen
    Assholes

    Doormats are guys who do everything and anything a woman wants. They are like children, and get no respect. Spending money to get attention is key.

    Nice guys are the ones who do a lot for women, through actions, and try to help with emotional problems ... only to get left when the woman returns to her man.

    Gentlemen are where you want to be - nice when it's called for, but also able to say No and stand your ground as needed. Able to work through problems and generally be an ADULT about everything.

    Assholes are the guys who are over-confident, cocky, and treat women like crap. This can be intoxicating for the drama junkie, but ultimately never seems to be very fulfilling.

    I've been a doormat and a nice guy for a good portion of my life, and I've been the asshole. Now I try to balance by being a gentleMAN who has self-control, self-confidence, and is still exciting and fun to be with. It's been working very well for me.
     
  19. DiggityDogg

    DiggityDogg Guest

    I don't like to talk about exceptions. The doormat guy always seems to hope that his situation IS the exception and keeps up with his doormat act. I don't like to leave any room for exception talk when trying to help these guys.
     

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