girls with boyfriends: devil's advocate

Discussion in 'Vaginarium' started by JohnJohnJohnson, Mar 1, 2008.

  1. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    Someone from another forum posted this argument. I'd like to hear people's thoughts since as you know, it's always been a "knife's edge" ethical concern of mine.

    ------- quote --------

    The "Devil's Advocate" argumentative side of me says: Good guys (chodes) always finish last. If there is something you want in this life you have to take it. If you are willing to settle for what other men don't want (the only girls without boyfriends), go for it.

    On the other hand, I think that it's really a confidence issue. People value time over quality. They will decide in favor of a piece of shit because they've known that person for years instead of a person that is awesome who they just met a few weeks ago. I hear people say "We've been friends for years" as though that's the most important thing. Just because a girl has been with someone for years doesn't mean he's "right" for her, nor does it mean he is even healthy for her. Time spent with a person is not a measure of the quality of that person nor of the relationship. Due to the addictive nature of people and dependent relationships, most people in this world are in unhealthy relationships where they derive their security and happiness from an comfort from another person. This leads women into relationships with complete pieces of shit that are "there for them". That's why women stay with guys who beat them.

    Assuming you are a "good guy"...

    You are better than the guy they are with. They deserve someone like you.

    Why is it so unbelievable to you that you are a catch?

    Believe in yourself and your ability to positively affect another person's life!

    Then throw on top of that that most girls have a boyfriend that is there only as a placeholder until they can find the man that is right for them. You must be able to see that women who are desirable will have a constant stream of people attempting to be with them. They often have a boyfriend that is there as an excuse or as a plaything. You are giving them the oppurtunity to be with a man.

    If their relationship is strong, they will tell you that they are happily together with a significant other and you will eject. It is impossible to game a girl hard enough to get her to fuck you if they are truly dedicated. We aren't manipulating them, we are giving them the choice.

    I believe in myself enough for these arguments to be valid. Women believe in me enough to agree, hence FBs who have left their boyfriend for a preferable option.

    ------- /quote --------

    As of this moment, I agree with him. If someone can provide a counter-argument I'll change my mind as fast I read. (I'm not talking about one-liners. One-liners are usually clever but empty rhetoric. If you are tempted to post a one-liner, please follow it up with an explanation of why you think the way you do.)
     
  2. BlackIce72

    BlackIce72 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    7,867
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    You never explicitely asked a question, but I'll assume it has something to do with if you think it's ethical to hit on a girl with a boyfriend.

    We've talked about this a lot, and for me it's yes. There's nothing wrong with it.

    A lot of girls keep a guy around just for companionship, even if they aren't really into him. And even if she is, how does that affect you? I'm not saying push for her to cheat, but it's not in any single person's best interest to wait until some sort of fight for someone else to break up.

    It sucks for the guy she's dating, but that's sexual selection man. That's how we survive.

    Some people have boatloads of money. Some people have none. The people with no money can't expect a check to just come in the mail one day. Sometimes it does, though. But if you don't go earn yourself a living you'll forever be poor. Sure, some people piss away their money like assholes. But you need to go out and GET it, even if someone else is holding it right now.

    Am I talking about stealing money? No, it's a metaphor. But if you deserve something more than someone else then go fucking get it.

    And who decides who deserves what? You, because you're your own biggest fan. Fuck being "nice" about it. Being "nice" isn't being nice. It's being a non-confrontational, uncomitted, masochistic loser.

    What happens if someone tried to take a caveman's woman? He fought for her. Maybe he died, but he tried. He didn't live out his existence in a cave and wait to wither away and die wondering when a woman would find him.

    What if this is the only life we get to live? Even if it is "unethical", disrespectful, whatever, you need to give it everything you have. If there was no struggle for power humans would be incredibly weak.
     
  3. Emfuser

    Emfuser Nuclear Moderator Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Messages:
    83,911
    Likes Received:
    466
    Location:
    Irmo, SC
    Your entire reasoning is basically one gigantic begging the question about what a "good" guy is as a means of reasoning to back your rationalization.

    You want to be selfish. Yes, we know that, since you've told us 893408214 times that you believe strongly in your own self-absorbed egotism.

    Being the "good guy" in said situation has nothing to do with a person being a loser and has everything to do with respect. That's respecting the boundaries of the girls relationship with her boyfriend and respecting the boyfriend's relationship with her.

    So if you want to go on with this ridiculously egotistical perception that in this world that there are only winners (amongst whom you count yourself) with a certain set of characteristics, and everyone else (losers), then feel free. Don't be surprised however, when the rest of the world doesn't follow suit and your attitude gets you punched in the mouth, looking down the barrel of a gun, or worse. Fucking with people's relationships is a good way to bring out the absolute worst in human beings.
     
  4. OccamvanRijn

    OccamvanRijn I am not what I am

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would say there's nothing wrong with being friendly, and even a little flirtatious with a woman who's in a relationship. If you are being genuine and honest, what's the foul? And if that woman dumps her boyfriend and wants to get in with you, there's no crime in accepting her offer.

    That being said, it is absolutely wrong to attempt to pick up a woman who is already in a relationship. She has committed to another person, a person who does not deserve to have someone trying to poison his SO against him. Setting out to try and attract a dating/married woman is absolutely wrong, inasmuch as it is deeply disrespectful to her and to her SO. A relationship is a mutual trust and respect, and the boyfriend should not have to fend off errant suitors lest their girl defect. It's an insult to treat people in relationships as potential mates.

    Even if you didn't instigate anything, and a girl decides to dump their boyfriend to date you, you need to seriously think about that relationship. Using human sexual selection tactics might be a powerful tool, but it is not one you control. If she ditched her current boy to date up the ladder, what's to stop her from upgrading from you? If your relationship is based off of trust and respect--and not some perceived hierarchy of manhood--then you can count on fidelity. Anything other than that is liable to be very painful.
     
  5. huntz0r

    huntz0r New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    15,951
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Isn't it even more "egotistical" to think that you can get a girl to ditch her boyfriend for you even if the relationship is great and fulfilling for her? That is, it takes her not caring too much about the guy she's with for her to entertain being with someone else. I can almost go for the homewrecker theory when it comes to the guy cheating, but not when it's the other way around. Women don't work the same way.

    Now, I don't actually think it's good to take an attached girl on dates and definitely not to have sex with her (not till she dumps her bf). But that's also a practical consideration for a few reasons: one, if she's willing to cheat, that reflects poorly on her character; two, it's a crappy way to start a relationship if she does leave him for you; three, in some cases she won't leave the guy, and you'll have wasted your energy.

    Plus, like you said, some guys will do really stupid things when they find out about the "other man"
     
  6. Viper

    Viper OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    65,778
    Likes Received:
    518
    Location:
    In a van down by the river
    I'll throw out a one-liner, because a one-liner is all that quote deserves...

    The person who posts an arguement like that is all good and well until another man steals his girlfriend. Then she suddenly becomes a "whore".

    Food for thought.
     
  7. huntz0r

    huntz0r New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    15,951
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    not rly

    That guy needs to examine himself first. There is no such thing as someone "stealing" your gf.

    Even slutty girls don't cheat on a guy they are madly in love with. The thought doesn't even occur to them.
     
  8. MattThom01

    MattThom01 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    8,752
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll throw this out. Other than casual flirting that you can do when the situation arises and you are around the taken women, why would you use your time and energy on actively pursuing someone who is taken?
     
  9. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    I think the question from my side would be, why not?

    The question you're asking only appeals to someone who already agrees with you.
     
  10. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    OK. Well as you know, I'm not like that. I've transcended that. Maybe the argument appeals to me more than it used to because I don't want the reason a girl stays "faithful" to me to be because she agreed to.

    Great response btw, Viper. Rather than responding to ANY of the guy's actual arguments or points, you attack his character; presuming he's wrong, and then castigating him for it, to explain why he's wrong. Very intelligent.
     
  11. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    i was looking more for an articulation as to why the ethics do or do not make sense.

    since human beings do not intrinsically have property rights over other human beings, the issue is not as simple as you might hope.

    as for the egotism jab, let me assure you that whatever I decide to be the ethical choice, I will extend that decision to all the people around me.

    the gun-down-the-throat thing is a loosely veiled appeal to consequence. the fact that someone else believes going after "his" girl is unethical, and the fact that, in response, he performs an act of heinous violence, has no bearing on the correctness of his belief.

    moreover, since I myself am of the opinion - and you may find this egotistical, I don't know - but since I myself am of the opinion that whichever girl I'm with should be with another man if that man makes her happier, it's kind of easy to see where this guy is coming from with this argument.

    Emfuser, you should find a quote of me saying I believe in self-absorbed egotism.

    You're acting like I'm about to "steal" your woman :rofl: :rofl:
     
  12. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    I don't think the idea, guys, is that you "deserve" the girl more than the other guy.

    The idea is that she "deserves" you. Right? That's what the guy I quoted was arguing at any rate.
     
  13. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    :ugh:

    Um... IF THere's someone who's better for her than I am, she should be with him.
     
  14. huntz0r

    huntz0r New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Messages:
    15,951
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    However, if she is totally committed and loyal, this becomes a non-issue. She will reject your advances, and continuing to pursue anyway will not result in anything other than you looking like a fool. Knowing that your woman will act this way when a guy tries to pick her up is, in fact, the definition of trust.

    Despite what the pickup artists tell you, there is no game you can use on a woman who's in love. The truth is simply that most attached women aren't that deeply in love with their boyfriends.
     
  15. JordanClarkson

    JordanClarkson OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2002
    Messages:
    59,957
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Go Dodger Blue!
    It's a good way to end up the victim of a double homicide :big grin:
     
  16. Osiris^

    Osiris^ Creepy as fuck son OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,583
    Likes Received:
    36
    Location:
    Earth
    i've actually been on the other end of this situation recently, so no i wouldn't recommend it. not unless you know how to handle yourself if the going gets heavy.

    there's a guy in work who has been constantly emailing and trying to chat up my girlfriend. i've found out about this, and given her pathetic attempts at trying to put him in his place, i decided to e-mail him myself. i just sent an email to his work address saying that trying to hookup with a girl who has a boyfriend is a dangerous game to play and - given my girlfriend has told him she's only interested in him as a friend as she has a boyfriend - i told him that i'd take matters into my own hands if he continued.

    if you're going to pull this shit, then you'd better hope you can handle yourself. some guys don't take any shit when it comes to chumps hitting on their woman.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2008
  17. BlackIce72

    BlackIce72 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    7,867
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    hey man I've been on both sides of the relationship and you don't need to outwardly fuck with a relationship

    if you're a cool dude and she likes you then do what you want

    And this DOES bring out the best in people. If there was no cheating, do you think the evolution of pair bonding or courtship would be like it is now?

    Or do you think the temptation to cheat has made man become not only a better seducer but a better husband or long term lover?

    And I'm not just throwing this out there. There is significant research done on this -- that the idea of cheating has made personality that much more important in sexual selection
     
  18. Viper

    Viper OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    65,778
    Likes Received:
    518
    Location:
    In a van down by the river
    Becaue the whole arguement sounds like it was written by someone who is extremely insecure and immature who tries to overcompensate by being a dick.

    I've seen these types of guys. And they are the WORST when it comes to losing THEIR girlfriend to someone else. And the reason is because they are painting over their insecurities instead of removing them.

    When you get out of high school, you realize that not all girls have boyfriends and you also realize that you don't HAVE to get someone else's girlfriend. When you are truly confident with yourself you realize that a girl who will leave her boyfriend for YOU, will leave YOU for the next person that comes along that has "game".

    There are PLENTY of single women out there, and not all of these women are "poor quality". The types of girls who use men as "placeholders" are the most insecure girls out there. Give me a girl who is strong enough to be alone when she wants to be alone please. Not a girl who has to have a boyfriend at all times to be "happy" or "content".

    Is that better? I'm sure you will turn that around as some sort of insecure arguement, but the truth is you are right about one thing...if there's a guy out there that my girl can be with who can make her happier, then by all means she should be with him (and I've told girls this before). I am not in the business of controlling who I am with anymore, nor am I in the business of trying to manipulate her. I've realized that true confidence in yourself comes from just being you. You don't have to pull a girl off her boyfriend to pad your confidence. That, as a matter of fact, is just fueling your insecurities.
     
  19. Viper

    Viper OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    65,778
    Likes Received:
    518
    Location:
    In a van down by the river
    Also, keep in mind I am talking about relationships here.

    When it comes to just getting some ass, by all means go ahead and do your thing. :dunno:
     
  20. Leah

    Leah OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    50,282
    Likes Received:
    297
    Location:
    Lawrence, Kansas
    I see what you're saying, but at the same time, I dealt with a guy like this a couple of months ago and the situation made me unappreciative of guys who think they're so "good".

    I've been with my boyfriend for 3 and a half years and when I started working at a particular place, I was pretty upfront about my relationship status, just because I've learned that's the best idea if you're not looking for any other kind of romatic attention. There was this guy I worked with who was really nice, fairly attractive, fun and easy to talk to, yada yada yada...we were good work buddies until he told me about how he had a crush on me. At first, there wasn't anything outwardly inappropriate about it because I didn't respond with anything my SO would be upset about...I just told him I was flattered, but no thanks and so on.

    But then he started showing up at all the bars that I went to with my girlfriends, trying to get in the whole irresponsible party atmosphere with me, which I thought was kinda weird. We would all be drinking, having a good time and then he would start telling me how much better he would be to me than my boyfriend, how he would take me all these exotic places and I'd never want for anything. Crazy stuff, totally turned me off. Then I found out about this plan he had hatched for my 21st birthday party...told a bunch of people at work that he was going to get me alone and make out with me...even though my boyfriend was there, of course. WTF? :ugh:

    And the bottom line was that yeah, he's a decent guy, has a lot of money but he was terribly wrong in assuming that he was better for me than my boyfriend. So you might be assuming that the girl is only still with the guy because of familiarity and you're probably way off the mark...sure there are lots of chicks who stay with a guy for the wrong reasons, but on the other hand, you might be making yourself look like a complete idiot if she's genuinely happy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2008
  21. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    OK, but the moral of this story isn't, "he was behaving unethically." The moral of this story is, "he had less to offer than your BF."

    As it turned out, the guy was not better for you than your BF so you stayed with your BF. I'm talking about the ethics and in this case he was (devil's advocate) in the right to approach you, giving you an offer that could be mutually beneficial, and you were in the right to turn him down, because his offer was no good.
     
  22. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    Dude, all you're doing is making assertions about "the type of person you are" IF you believe this guy's argument makes sense. But you're not ACTUALLY ADDRESSING his argument. Just explaining what kind of person you must be, in order to believe his argument. That's not a counter-argument. That's called an appeal to consequence:

    1. If you believe X, you probably are insecure.
    2. Therefore, X is false.

    As for me framing you as insecurre - I don't CARE whether you're making broad generalizations about "guys like this" out of insecurity. You may be extremely insecure, but that doesn't make your words incorrect or correct. If I used that approach, it wouldn't be any more of an argument than the one you're making right now. Basically an ad hominem.

    Try to respond to what the guy's actual argument says, rather than to what the guy's argument says about the guy.

    This is weird... it's like no one here is WILLING to respond to what the guy's words say, they're only willing to bicker over what the guy's words say about the guy. Even Emfuser.

    Look, you win. The guy's probably REALLY INSECURE :)zomg:) and he's probably into fucking little boys and he's probably a serial killer.

    Now address his argument, please.
     
  23. Leah

    Leah OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2006
    Messages:
    50,282
    Likes Received:
    297
    Location:
    Lawrence, Kansas
    That's just it though, in his mind he was the better option and there are a lot of factors that would make others agree with him...I guess, IMO, unless you know for a fact that the woman is being severely mistreated, it's pretentious to approach her. Because chances are, you don't know anything about her current relationship.
     
  24. Viper

    Viper OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Messages:
    65,778
    Likes Received:
    518
    Location:
    In a van down by the river
    Ok, can you spell out his arguement then? I mean what points exactly do you want me to address specifically, because I thought I WAS addressing his arguement. :dunno:
     
  25. JohnJohnJohnson

    JohnJohnJohnson Effetely Sipping My Latte OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    23,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Manhattan
    thanks guys, b back in a bit
     

Share This Page