GUN Games vs. real training

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Soybomb, Mar 19, 2009.

  1. Soybomb

    Soybomb New Member

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    Competing in IPSC and IDPA are not the most effective ways of training, period. The skills and equipment that win matches are not the skills and equipment that will save your life in a gun fight.


    Games are not training.












    http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=847070&page=1
    :mamoru:

    So how many of you know the guys that get off to reading the latest reports of training by Special Operator Big Balls that can't shoot worth a damn? :big grin: What's the OT take?
     
  2. Bloody Sunday

    Bloody Sunday OT Supporter

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  3. Games introduce you to shooting under stress, and they force you to shoot in ways you never experience if you just stand there at a range and shoot at a target that hangs in front of you. Games force you to learn to fix issues with your weapon quickly and get it back in the fight. Games force you to work on speed and accuracy.
     
  4. sprite

    sprite Active Member

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    They are synergistic and the best shooters do both.
     
  5. spankaveli

    spankaveli OT Supporter

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    Both > Either > Neither.
     
  6. Keesh

    Keesh New Member

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    yep
     
  7. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    I never understood why these fucks always think that IDPA/USPSA should only allow "run what ya brung" style guns. No one is going to stop them from using their fucking J-frame to shoot open if they want, they just won't likely be getting a trophy for it.

    I always get the feeling that these "tactical testicle" (still my favorite term) people are trying to push their dogma on everyone else who is out there competing for fun and for competitions sake, like they are the only ones who can't see these matches for what they are. So fucking what if I'm not carrying my race gun, I understand I'm shooting a "game" and I'm ok with it. Not everything I do involving a firearm has to directly correlate to some life/death defensive scenario.

    Honestly, if they are strictly set into that mode and everything they do is gearing up for some great shoot out, why would they care anyways if they aren't competitive. They are only shooting for the "weapons familiarity", right?
     
  8. Keesh

    Keesh New Member

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    Gaming a couple times a month > Taking one defensive class a year.
     
  9. jehan60188

    jehan60188 New Member

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    sweet, an excuse to keep playing halo!
     
  10. AB13

    AB13 New Member

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    phrozen, it's rather simple... pure hate.

    Likely got their asses handed to them by your garden variety C class. lol

    Training is great, but if you do not regularly practice and even more importantly MEASURE your growth, success, failures. You are rite back to square one.

    Anyone that can not appreciate the proficiency gained from the experience of regular competitions, or the ability to put shots on your target from dynamic position/envoirement in an fast and accurate manner is someone no longer capable of reasoning with regards to defensive training.

    Someone please tell the Army (what do they know about defense?) that they are wasting their time with Tomasie, Max Michael and Eucebo on their marksmanship team. What do they know, they are only gamers.
     
  11. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

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    Games are not training. Games do not teach you mind set, and tactics that are better suited to real life gun fights. Games do provide an enviroment where you can improve the raw mechanics of shooting fast and accurate. Being able to shoot fast and accurate is a valuable tool in a real gun fight.

    One of my pet peeves are tactical yahoo's who believe that their small amount of training and their subscription to SOF makes them some sort of wanabe operator. They are not so much concerned about building themselves as a better weapon, but telling everyone else they are not tactical. They do not think for themselves but recite some babble they read on ar15, some magazine, or some instructor.

    People that are serious about giving themselves the best chance at surviving a gun fight look to learn every philosophy or disipline. There is a lot of innovation coming from the gamer world in terms of equipment and the way the hone raw shooting skill. We've been contacted by two seperate swat teams to do demo's with our equipment. The law enforcement community is looking hard at the practicality of dot sights on handguns and one of our local swat teams is pushing hard to be a test bed. I would like to see dot sights on shotguns too as it seems to be best tool for both less than lethal, and lethal applications.

    On the gamer and "tactical" side it all comes down to recognition and mind set. I'll give some examples that are either right or wrong.

    1. We were discussing engagement of a stage and I was telling a copper buddy that it was fastest to shoot this set of bad guys form one spot then run over to a sweet spot to get the rest. He said he was going to shoot the targets as he came up to them even though it was going to be 3 seconds slower (that's a lot). I asked him why and he said he has a problem running past threats, he shoots them as he sees them. I call this one a draw as he had a good point but he could always pretend that the other threats appeared when he got to the second position. Whatever the case I left it alone because at least he was thinking.
    2. On one stage of long range rifle we had to engage 300 yard targets through a window. Everyone used the window sill to barricade the rifle off of to shoot the targets. One SD marshall spouted that if you used the window sill you would silloute yourself making yourself a bigger target, which is true. One of the SD swat guys recommended that he pretend that he was shooting off a desk in a room and out the window as making a 300 yard shot with a 5 mile cross wind from kneeling was going to be difficult. He ran his mouth about tactical this and that so we let him be. He gave up after he ran both 30 round mags dry without hitting any of the 7 targets. He blamed it on the gun which is rated for 4 moa as it was a fighting rifle. Guy has not shown up at another match and no showed on the law enforcement match he was training for. Fail
    3. We were shooting from behind a car and one of the SD swat guys is talking to a rookie copper about how rounds richocet off the ground and going prone and shooting under the car is generall a bad idea. As any misses could ride the ground and hit him. Better to shoot kneeling using the tire and engine block as cover as it was the most protection. He said this loud enough for others to hear and the whole squad was listening. While not everyone shot the stage in that manner I think everyone learned something. Win.
     
  12. phrozenlikwid

    phrozenlikwid New Member

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    That's the only conclusion I can come up with AB. I don't want to paint everyone with the same brush, but I notice a higher percentage of your gucci-gunner type dudes flying the tactical flag than I think I have anywhere else. I think these are the same kind of guys who want to talk all this rhetoric, and fight over methodology minutia, but have never actually done anything themselves to figure any of it out.

    Playing our games forces them into a situation that they can't simply talk out of, being as they actually have to fucking shoot something to have any credibility. Of course, nobody wants to have to do thaaaaat.
     
  13. johan

    johan Active Member

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    I enjoy ipsc because its fun, and offers me a chance to practice gun handling and shooting while running. I shoot prod with stock 226's.

    Obviously it's not true tactical training, but it allows me at least some kind of useful practice, and that beats fumbling with my piece if "that" day ever comes.



    Life's about choices and I don't have the time or inclination to become some kind of 'operator'.
    Career and family pretty much rule that out, esp time-wise.

    As for the other end of the spectrum, we don't get many of these fakey tactical posers around here, I do wish more would show up actually...

    Always ready for added amusement during a day at the range.
     
  14. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    Anything that you learn from is beneficial.

    Some gaming may not promote a fighting attitude, but almost everything I'm aware of reinforces technique and introduces stress, so it's still valuable.
     
  15. Keesh

    Keesh New Member

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    This is one thing I never agreed with or understood in 'tactical training' for shooting under cars. Kneeling behind the engine block/wheel will give you more support, allow you to move quicker, and you will be exposing less of your body. The tacticool-side-lay-down-thing has its place, but I don't think it's under a car.
     
  16. bpa00

    bpa00 New Member

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    It seems to me that it would greatly benefit your overall shooting related skills... which has to have some benefit in a real combat situation... certainly WAY more benefit than just standing in a booth shooting a stationary paper target.
     
  17. Keesh

    Keesh New Member

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    You'd think so but you'd be surprised what 5 identical ARs and $1000 in tactical gear would do for your skills.
     
  18. kellyclan

    kellyclan She only loves you when she's drunk.

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    Wait, you mean having a rare, DEVGRU-issued, Navy-SEAL-sweat-upon LBT plate carrier won't make me a better shooter? :confused:
     
  19. yar1182

    yar1182 New Member

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    You have a very narrow imagination. What about home defense during a home invasion. What about if your forced to leave your house in a natural disaster. What about where you actualy do what your suppose to and spot said potential because you were aware of your enviroment. A percentage of confrontation is going to be contact range and after you have been engaged by said threat. Yes it is important to learn to engage with retention. The truth is your probably not going to survive this situation anyways because you were not aware of your enviroment, have been stabbed or shot already. Any motivated threat would of killed you before you could draw at that point.
     
  20. bpa00

    bpa00 New Member

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    I watch 24 every single week. I figure that makes me good to go as a suburban commando bad ass.
     
  21. dpixel8

    dpixel8 New Member

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    are game events expensive? I've taken a few training classes, and have come to the conclusion that though I learned a fair bit, they're way fucking over-priced, and most of the people there are the keyboard commandos we're talking about. (or simple nutjobs who are so against the government they end up spending more time talking about that shit between breaks than anything else)

    Can you use your off-the-shelf firearms for games? How to find locations?
     
  22. dpixel8

    dpixel8 New Member

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    I play COD. I am a fucking Sergeant Major
     
  23. Yeah, you can. If you shoot IDPA you basically need a gun, holster, 3 magazines, and a mag pouch (either a double pouch or 2 single pouches.) Other than that just ear and eye protection and ammo. Match fees are usually $15-$20.

    You can shoot USPSA production too with "normal" guns. The equipment is basically the same as IDPA but you will need a few more mags and more mag pouches for them.
     
  24. dpixel8

    dpixel8 New Member

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    thanks. I'll look into it. much cheaper than paying $400 for a day of training
     
  25. sprite

    sprite Active Member

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    USPSA Clubs in WI

     

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