SRS dog training issue

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Pepe, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. Pepe

    Pepe New Member

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    i have two yellow labs, both very well behaved because i took the time to train them properly.

    this girl i've been seeing off and on got a 1/2 shih tzu 1/2 jack russell terrier about 7 months ago and this thing is HORRIBLE. whenever i'm at her place, this thing is just the definition of annoying. it jumps up on you, barks at everything, gets scared really easy and pisses on shit, and a ton of other annoying crap.

    anyways, she has asked me to train it, because she sees how good my dogs are. i told her no matter what i do, she has to stop treating it as if it is a person and be its owner. her reply is "i know but its just so damn cute" wtf?

    so i have had this thing for the past few days (she had to go out of town) and i have some concerns. it doesn't respond to anything except food (it has her trained to get treats rather than her training it). but when i train my dogs there is a certain amount of force used. no abuse, no kicking, nothing like that. stern slaps to the butt or nose if they do something bad, or a thumb in the mouth if they chew or bite.

    well today i caught it chewing on the leg of my kitchen table (no damage done yet, caught him early as i was watching him) and he got a swift smack on the nose. the damn thing bit my hand, and out of reflex with the other one i smacked it and it went flying nearly halfway across the room. now this thing is scared to death and when i try to come near it it fucking hisses at me and tries to bite me. i'm really tempted to just beat this things ass and hopefully instill some dominance in it, but i'm not sure if that would even help.

    anyone have any suggestions. i LOVE animals, especially dogs, but i feel like this thing thinks it is in charge of people and that is a BAD thing to have a dog feel. i don't want to hurt it, but i really do think that asserting some force to show dominance is what it needs. also, i might go pick up a shock collar and try that out. has anyone used one of those? this dog needs to be trained for its sake, the girls sake, and for other people's safety around it. i'm not just gonna hand the dog back to this girl and be like "sorry that thing is a lost cause" without really trying.

    also, on a side note, she won't take it to a dog trainer (she had a dog die at one when she was growing up and thinks they abuse them or something) so that is absolutely out of the question, and she is currently way too busy with her job to do a owner/trainer thing with herself and her dog. i don't feel obligated to do this, i just don't ever back down from a challenge.

    thanks.
     
  2. saabguy

    saabguy Active Member

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    Going to obedience classes would help the dog AND her. We did the pet-smart puppy school once, it was every Saturday for about an hour. Hopefully she could find time for 1 hour a week.
     
  3. METALLlC BLUE

    METALLlC BLUE New Member

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    Sounds exactly like the situation I was in. I had to train this miniture doberman. It has the personality and temperament of a big one, but obviously it only weighs about 10 pounds.

    Here is what I did.

    A: Taught her to sit. Take my finger, point down to the floor in front of me signaling to come here and sit. At first the animal would not listen, so I would say "Sit" extremely forcefully over and over. Repetition"without" food, worked over time. I had to bring the dog over physically in front of me, and yell "Sit" while pointing down. Everytime the dog didn't listen, I slapped it in the muzzle firmly and certainly painfully a little. The dog would get mad and I would get more aggressive (not out of anger, but out of dominance). I would repeat this over and over -- just one single technqiue, until the animal mastered it. After being slapped about 100 times, being forced into a sitting position another 100 times, and being told to sit hundreds of times more, the animal began to sit once or twice in the first day.

    B: Each time the animal did the correct action, or "part" of the correct action, it was rewarded with physical affection, petting, hugs, and told "Good girl/boy, that's a good girl or boy -- with a very friendly upbeat voice."

    C: The lessons should only be done for no more than 15-30 mins, and then repeated the next day until the animal sits on the first or second command. Eventually the animal will sit for anyone without them having to train it.

    You can do this for "Here" (Come over to you).
    You can do this for "Sit"
    You can do this for "Laydown." Laydown's hand technique is palm down (hitler style), and bringing the hand and arm down 1 foot -- i.e. "lay down." and Stay.
    Speaking was the next technique. This one takes time, and don't punish the dog much for the techniques which are supplemental. Rolling over, speaking, jumping, paw (left and right hand).

    The main techniques: "HERE" "SITS" and "LAY" down are key. Once you've got these, then work on "Stay" in the same format.

    Don't be afraid to get aggressive and even mean, but don't get "angry" -- the idea is not to injure, but to control until control and aggression are no longer necessary and the animal attaches the commands with pleasure, not with pain (which is what they'll associate them with at first)

    I'm not a professional, this was only the method I used on dog that most people would consider untrainable. Most wouldn't have the stomach to do what I did. My girlfriend thought it was very abusive, so be very aware of why you're doing it, and do research first to see if a better way exists.

    I did all I could and found no option left. So I did the above techniques, and I also used a crate. I tell her "GO IN YOUR CRATE" when she's been bad. When she's been good, I use my "friendly" voice and repeat the same phrase. "Go in your crate" so that I can have some quiet time and she can rest after frying her brain during a lot of training.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2009
  4. chica&buddies

    chica&buddies Active Member

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    wow... to start off "cheap," i suggest watching some episodes of cesar millan's the dog whisperer.

    i realize the dog has "hissed" at you, but the only way to get the dog to listen to you is to get the dog to surrender into a calm, submissive state.

    it's important to note that you should not go into this challenge with any sort of anger. the idea is to be calm, cool, and collected. the dog will be able to feel your negative energy.

    also, you should never directly hit or slap a dog. cesar millan uses little jabs into a dog's side or tugs at the leash to redirect a dog's attention back to what it's supposed to be doing. slapping a dog, hitting it's butt, etc, is going to do nothing except make the dog scared of you.

    good luck. training is difficult, especially if you're trying to undo 7 months of this girl's bad work.

    :squint: if there's one thing that pisses me off, it's people who think they're ready for a dog, only to come to find out they don't really have the time to invest in the dog in the first place. :rant2:

    also, i hope you realize that this dog will never behave correctly if this girl doesn't create rules for the dog that she actually implements.
     
  5. Diesel66

    Diesel66 My standards for women is like rent-a-centers stan OT Supporter

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    well yeah, you did slap the shit out of a tiny little rat-dog.
     
  6. no lol today

    no lol today Soy la bailarina de la muerta. OT Supporter

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    She'll ruin all your effort when you give it back to her.

    Train her first. Who knows, the dog may respond better to her if she's got all the right moves.
     
  7. Pepe

    Pepe New Member

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    first off thanks for the responses, i'll respond to each of them

    i agree, she is one of those "i'd rather pay for it because my time is worth more to me" idiots.

    excellent advice, pretty much how i trained my 2 yellow labs. anger is not the key, but asserting power and dominance is. they both love me very much (as i love them too) but they know when they do something wrong and 9 times out of 10 their guilt is enough punishment for them to learn.

    i have watched the dog whisperer many times, one of my favorite show as i love animals and especially dogs. i've tried being calm, just laying on the floor with it and giving it toys with a little bit of peanut butter on them. the dog does not respond to anything unless the girl is around because every time she is around and it is scared, she picks it up to get it away from its fear, and hugs and kisses it.

    i realize anger is definitely not a way to get this dog to listen. i am not angry at all, even though it bit me. when i hit it it was out of pure reaction and still not angry. when i mentioned "beating its ass" i didn't mean it in the sense that i want to hurt it or make myself feel good by satisfying any anger. to me, this dog comes off as it is the dominant figure and has this girl trained. it needs to realize that it is not the dominant figure.

    i agree that people who get dogs when they aren't ready for them are pathetic. they are just hurting the dog because of their selfish needs.

    well it was a reaction to get the animal to stop biting my hand. almost like a reflex. you tell me what you would do if a dog clamped onto your hand.

    i agree, and i already have talked to her about that. she say she will try to improve on her behavior, but we shall see.





    so anyways, i tried a variety of different approaches with this thing. NOTHING would work. took it for a bunch of walks (both with my dogs and without). it just refuses to move and i end up dragging it the whole way. so i ended up going to pet smart and purchasing a shock collar. used it half the day day sat and today to train this dog and let me tell you, these things work. i got one that emits a little beep before it is going to shock, so i really only had to actually shock the dog 5-6 times before it knew that the beep meant it was about to get owned. so i then could just push the beep button (along with me telling it bad dog) when it did something bad, and i slowly turned down the volume of the beep, so my voice has been the only reinforcement. in two days this thing really has helped shaped this little dog. i gave it back to her tonight, along with the collar and explained to her the work i was able to accomplish and if she screws it up i'm gonna put the shock collar on her and she's gonna get it. so i'm gettin the little devil again next weekend to see how it makes it through the week, but just figured i would report back. thanks
     
  8. OniMinion

    OniMinion ...recalls when this forum was actually about cars OT Supporter

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    I laughed so hard because I know exactly where you are. My wife, then girlfriend, had bought a Boston Terrier from a rescue. She had him for a little over a year when I met her. That dog did all the same shit. Pissed on the floor, barked at me, growled at me etc. Best part, she got the dog that was used in dog fights (but I don't think with M. Vick). I got bit countless times. Here is what I learned.

    When the dog bites you, resist hitting it (Lord knows I failed that test the first few times). Instead, howl like the dog would if you bit them. It sounds stupid, but a lot of times they can understand that reaction. I swear the first time I howled when my dog bit me he looked shocked, like "WTF, that hurt?!" I don't think the dog understood until then.

    You also need to take the role of Alpha Male. To do this, spit in his food dish every time he eats. ALWAYS make sure you eat FIRST! Finish your meal, clean up and then prepare the dogs diner. DON'T just set the food down, instead, have the dog sit. The dog needs to show patience. Then, when the dog is sitting, spit in his food. This is what wild dogs "do" since the Alpha Male always eats first. NOTE: The sitting part will take a LOT OF TIME, don't rush it. Don't yell, or smack, but reward (liver snaps work great for this since they are a healthy treat).

    Play with the thing. I know you hate the damn thing, I hated mine at first as well. Show the dog that you are quicker, and faster. Use toys etc.

    Big things: If the dog pisses on the floor and you catch it, you can train him. If the dog pisses on the floor while you are gone, and then you see it - the dog "won't remember peeing on the floor". So getting upset at the dog won't help. However, if YOU DO CATCH THE DOG IN THE ACT, pick him up and say "No!" with his face practically in it. Then the dog will know the cause and effect of what happened.

    Lastly, hold the dog. Little by little the dog will allow you to hold him longer. Now, my Boston will lay on his back (non-defensive position) on my lap for close to two hours. When I started, I was lucky to get 30 seconds.

    Above all, have patience. We are smarter than dogs, and it takes them longer to get things right when they have been doing wrong for so long.

    EDIT: Also, make sure you girlfriend is doing all of the above as well. Otherwise, the dog will act differently for you and NOT her - negating her whole request.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2009
  9. epitaph

    epitaph Exorcizamus te, omnis immundus spiritus.

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    Like people have said, suggest she watch some Dog Whisperer, or point her to a website or some books. Best yet, some obedience classes. My sister is doing this with her shih tzu and already I see an improvement.

    Force is not the way to go in establishing dominance. It's established in almost every little interaction you have with the dog.

    As for her, she definitely needs to learn to treat her dog like a dog. Not a human. Teach her what dogs will view as dominant behavior. With my dog I find that some things are difficult to fit into my routine - such as eating before the dog. So I will prepare my dog's food and then pretend to eat out of his bowl before giving it to him. Sounds silly but I feel it gets the same message across.

    Tell her to make her dog work for EVERYTHING. Sit or lie down for absolutely everything from being pet, to receiving his meal, to going outside. Then teach her to ignore bad behavior. Anything that the dog does without invitation from her should be considered dominant behavior and corrected or ignored. I know this is difficult especially for girls and their cute little toy dogs that are demanding affection all the time. But that's exactly the problem. The dog is demanding affection and by giving into the dog she sets herself up to fail already.

    Finally, is she walking this dog? Judging by it's behavior I'd say she's not. Not only is walking (correctly!) one of the best ways to establish yourself as the alpha but it drains pent up energy that usually turns into more bad behavior. It's also a required activity for a dog's mental health. It's what they do in packs. They walk. A tired dog is a good dog.

    But hell, I learned most of this stuff watching Dog Whisperer and reading some books, so just make sure she edcuates herself well so she can continue whatever training you are able to do with it.
     
  10. Yossarian

    Yossarian OT Supporter

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    Skimmed through the replies, lots of smart things being said and I'm sure someone said this already but I don't think it can be said enough - train the owner.
     
  11. THoC

    THoC New Member

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    :ugh:



    you need to learn how to train a lesser obedient breed. labs are very intelligent dogs.

    violence will do nothing other then make him afraid of you, at which point you will not be able to train him.
    they need to respect you in order to obey not fear you.


    treats are the best way to train a dog. remain patient but stern w.o raising your hands.
     
  12. OniMinion

    OniMinion ...recalls when this forum was actually about cars OT Supporter

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    I agree completely. Training the smaller breeds is super tough compared to the larger breeds.
     
  13. J_75

    J_75 New Member

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    When a dog's first reaction to being disciplined is to bite, you need to put an end to that IMMEDIATELY.

    I agree that training through rewards is better than through discipline/pain/etc.....but a dog that thinks biting is ok is NOT ready for any kind of real training.

    And when did small dogs become fragile little tea cups? Yes, they are smaller, but that doesn't meant they aren't dogs just like any other breed. Be more careful around them, but refusing to use physical discipline because the dog weighs less than X pounds? :nono:
     
  14. THoC

    THoC New Member

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    you should refrain from physical discipline w. all dogs.

    you can become dominant and put them in their place w.o hitting them.

    you smack a dog in the face of course his reaction will be to bite at you.
     
  15. OniMinion

    OniMinion ...recalls when this forum was actually about cars OT Supporter

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    I can say with great certainty (since an argument is about to ensue) that you do NOT HIT A RESCUE DOG THAT WAS IN DOG FIGHTS...

    ...thank you...
     

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