Definitions wanted...

Discussion in 'OT Driven' started by kag, Jul 4, 2003.

  1. kag

    kag Jedi Master

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2002
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    I don't know a lot about old muscle cars, and I often hear those...

    Hemi
    Mopar

    I know there are more that I don't know, but I can only think of those two right now.
     
  2. bigsteve7

    bigsteve7 OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2003
    Messages:
    379
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    MOPAR is the Chrysler performance division. This means Dodge and Plymouth as well. I believe its short for "motor parts" but dont take my word on that cause I cant remember where I read or heard that.

    Hemi is an abreviation for a type of engine Chrylser came out with in the late 60s? Anyways, these Hemi motors were special because the heads had hemispherical combustion chambers and made a lot of power. So much power infact that they dominated drag strips and NASCAR. These engines got a lot of hype and big brought big names like Richard Petty over to Chrysler. The Hemis Superbirds actually had to be banned from NASCAR because they dominated the competition so badly.

    I believe everything I told you here is fact, and if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.
     
  3. DJ Zeratul

    DJ Zeratul New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2002
    Messages:
    4,353
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    old Mopars were known for having horrible build quality :o
     
  4. DGroot

    DGroot Guest

    Back in the day Mopar was quite a staple at the tracks and drag strips around the country. They weren't originally synonymous with poor quality. Dodge ran into some financial problems in the 80s and had to be bailed out. It was during this time that Mopar picked up a bad rap. Think Dodge Ares, Plymoth 600. Dodge and Plymoth started building some of the crappiest stuff the industry has ever seen. I think Dodge and Crysler are really starting to come around though. They still have some problems with reliability/mechanical stability, but they produce a good looking product. Thier trucks especially are really starting to give them a better reputation.
     
  5. Wolf

    Wolf No one plans to take the path that brings you lowe

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2003
    Messages:
    105,186
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Mopar is to Dodge/Chrysler as Mugen is to Honda, STi is to Subaru, TRD is to Toyota, etc.

    Hemi is a trademarked name for Dodge's heads with hemispherical combustion chambers. Other manufacturers also use hemispherical heads, but the Hemi name is trademarked to Dodge.
     
  6. twist_of_fate

    twist_of_fate New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2002
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does anyone actually know a site that those of us that don't know much about the older cars can go to, to get definitions?
     
  7. Cue-Ball

    Cue-Ball I hate you, Milkman Dan

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kirkland, WA
    I don't know of any good comprehensive links, but there are plenty of good books out there. Most websites seem to cater to a particular brand or model. Either hit up the local library or buy a few low-priced books off amazon. I haven't read this yet, but the preview of the book looks promising.

    American Muscle Cars
     
  8. twist_of_fate

    twist_of_fate New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2002
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's one that I'll have to take a look at. What I was kind of looking for though, was something like a dictionary of automotive terms.

    Just in case I did happen to find a site that might help those of us that might need a little help with definitions. http://www.motorera.com/dictionary/car-dic.htm


    However, it didn't really give me the best descriptions for stroke. Do you think any of you guys could give me a slightly more detailed explanation of stroking an engine?
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2003
  9. Cue-Ball

    Cue-Ball I hate you, Milkman Dan

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kirkland, WA
    Well, here's what it gives as a description:

    stroke:
    The distance the piston moves when travelling from bottom dead center (BDC) to top dead center (TDC) or vice versa.
    [2] To modify the stroke of an engine by using a different crankshaft to increase or (rarely) reduce the displacement.

    That's it, in a nutshell. The bore of an engine is the distance the piston travels between top dead center (top of the stroke) and bottom dead center (bottom of the stroke). The bore of an engine is the width of the piston. If you multiply (bore * stroke) * number of cylinders you get the total displacement of the engine. Note that this is a little simplified since you need to account for the cylinders being round. Here's an example:

    Ford 302cid
    Bore 4.000 inches
    Stroke 3.000 inches

    bore * pi = 4 * pi = 4 * 3.1416 = 12.566 square inches
    bore in sq/in * stroke = 12.566 * 3 = 37.699 cubic inches per cylinder
    cylinder displacement * number of cyls = 37.699 * 8 = 301.59 cubic inches.

    "Stroking" an engine just means that you install different crankshaft/rods/pistons so that the bore stays the same and the stroke increases. If the stroke increases, that means that the piston travels further and the displacement increases.

    For instance, if you use the same formula above but "stroke" the engine from a 3" stroke to a 3.5" stroke you'll end up with 351 cubic inches (basically, the 351 Ford Windsor engine). If you take the 302 and "bore" it .030" you'll end up with a 306 cu. in. engine. Use basic math and you can change these values from cubic inches into liters.
     
  10. 6SpeedTA95

    6SpeedTA95 OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2003
    Messages:
    60,974
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    EXCELLENT post...however, you didn't point out the differences in the windsor/cleveland motors from FMC...Windsor are generally bigger bore...the 302 you listed was a windsor motor with the 4.0 inch bore spacing...Clevlands are generally stroked more and bored less....
     
  11. Cue-Ball

    Cue-Ball I hate you, Milkman Dan

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kirkland, WA
    I didn't want to bring up the Cleveland because it's really in a different league than the 302/351W.

    The Windsor is the same bore and bore spacing as the 289/302 but uses a 3.5" stroke while the 302 uses a 3" stroke and the 289 uses a 2.8XX" stroke. The 289/302/351W heads are all interchangeable because of the fact that the 289/302 block and the 351W block both use the same bore, bore spacing, and water jacket placement. The 302 and 351W blocks ARE different, but they share a lot in common.

    The Cleveland is a whole different animal. It's a way beefier block, bigger heads, bigger valves, canted valves, etc. A friend of mine had a 351C back in high school and i had a 302. Talk about two engines with nothing in common. Too bad he installed a huge cam that needed to rev to hell and back to make any power.

    Perhaps a better example for my displacement equation would have been the Chevy 305/327/350.
     
  12. 6SpeedTA95

    6SpeedTA95 OT Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2003
    Messages:
    60,974
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Excellent post...care to elaborate in detail on the cleveland...I've been a car fanatic my whole life and never really knew all the differences...I know the cleveland is a four bolt main block if memory serves me right...but thats about all I can remember....
     
  13. Cue-Ball

    Cue-Ball I hate you, Milkman Dan

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    3,006
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Kirkland, WA
    I'm not exactly a Cleveland expert myself, but i learned a lot about them by helping my friend build up his 1973 Torino which had a 351C. I'll offer up what i do know (this is from memory, so my specifics might be a bit off). The 351C and 351W are completely, totally different and share no parts. The Windsor engines route coolant through the intake. Not a great design since it can easily cause leaks and you have to be careful about some intake bolts which actually go through the water jackets. The 351C does not have this limitation. The 351C was only made for a few years (1971-1973, i think) and it was the basis for the Boss 351 engine in the 1971 Boss 351 Mustang. There's also a Cleveland-type engine called the 351M (Modified). I'm not sure what the differences were on this engine, but i know it had 4 bolt mains (possibly splayed) and some crank changes. Cleveland blocks come with both 2 and 4 bolt mains. The block was available with two completely different heads. One set designed for the 2 barrel model and one designed for the 4bbl model. I think the 2bbl versions got the 2 bolt main caps and the 4bbl versions got the 4 bolt mains, but don't quote me on that. I don't remember the specifics of the 2bbl model other than the valves were sized similarly to the 351W. However; the 4bbl heads were completely and totally different. My friend's car had the 4bbl model and the valves were HUGE. Over 2" intake and around 1.7-1.8" exhaust, IIRC. The only way Ford could fit these huge valves in the combustion chamber was to use a smaller plug and to place the valves at different angles to one another. The intake valves end up being almost vertical instead of being in line with the piston stroke. The exhaust valves are pretty close to in-line. Having these huge-ass valves made the engines great for NASCAR type racing (which is what they were supposedly built for) since they made huge power at high RPMs thanks the the massive flow of the heads. Since it was mostly used in Torinos, Cyclones, Pickups, etc. you probably won't even ever see a 351C. I wouldn't call them "rare", but there don't seem to be a lot of them out there, and very few made it into the muscle cars that people keep and restore.
     
  14. Moloko

    Moloko New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    12,469
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Slatington PA
    The build quality of dodge during the 80's may have been pretty poor, but it was better than the other big three. Look how many K-cars you still see around, and some are even in good shape. Now look for other 80's domestics, even though more K-cars were produced than any other car, they still greately outnumber any other car from the 80's on the streets.
     

Share This Page