MIL Dealing with insubordination.

Discussion in 'On Topic' started by Short Bus, Jun 10, 2005.

  1. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    I can try to explain my situation, or I could just post the MFR I have written up on it. Names have been changed. I'll post this and post the course of action I plan to take in the second post.



    SSgt Bob = other flight's assistant flight chief
    TSgt Fred = other flight's flight chief
    A1C Dumbass = A1C Dumbass


    Receive call from SSgt. Bob concerning a requirement for four airman to cover a colors detail at.

    I select four airman, to include A1C Dumbass. I write an eMail, and attempt to contact each airman by phone. I get into contact with A1C Dumbass and I am told "I can not go." I am told that she has an awards ceremony that she absolutely must be present for. I respond by telling her that I will attempt to contact SSgt. Joe or SrA Benito, and that perhaps they could replace her. Conversation ends.

    After several failed attempts to contact SSgt. Joe and SrA Benito by phone, I call A1C Dumbass just to give her a heads up. I tell her that I have so far failed to get in contact with SSgt. Joe or SrA Benito, and that until I inform her that I have come into contact with either them and have secured a replacement, that she will assume that she is to show up at the honor guard shack at 0500 on Friday morning. A1C Dumbass ends the conversation by hanging up the phone, rather abruptly. (she hung up on me)

    From a previous conversation with SSgt. Bob, I'm told that he would be willing to trade with a member of my flight so that he would go on one of the colors details and a member of my flight could go on the funeral detail. I contact SSgt. Bob in an attempt to accomodate A1C Dumbass' need to be at her awards ceremony.

    During a conversation with SSgt. Bob I am informed that A1C Dumbass called the honor guard shack and asked questions as to the manning level on the retiree detail. At which point I am told that she requested SSgt. Bob to remove one member of the funeral detail, place them on the colors detail in her place, and to have the firing party "call it from the line." I am told that SSgt. Bob informs A1C Dumbass that he will not do that without approval from her flight chief.

    I receive a call from TSgt. Fred saying that he does not wish to use any members of my flight for the funeral detail. Suggests that I tell A1C Dumbass that she will be going to this colors detail.

    I call A1C Dumbass. I ask her why she called the honor guard shack to ask what the manning levels for the funeral detail were. I also ask why she told SSgt. Bob that she had an emergency, when I was told in a prior discussion that she needed to be at an awards ceremony. I inform A1C Dumbass that an emergency would be what happened last night to SrA Latoya, concerning her car wreck and potential back injury. She responds by explaining that she feels the honor guard has caused her to miss out on a lot of unit activities and that the honor guard should meet her half way on this. In return I explain that every single member of the flight has other activities that they're missing out on and sacrifices that have to be made, and I explain my own personal situation with some of the things I'm having to pass up on. Again I say "unless I can get ahold of a replacement for you, I expect you to be at the honor guard shack at 0500... unless you can provide a replacement." At which point I'm told "you can write me up."

    I call TSgt. NCOIC and inform him of the situation. I explain the series of events as well as I possibly could, and request assistance because I was unsure of how to deal with it. Unfortunately I was a little upset, so I may not have explained the situation thoroughly enough. He tells me that he will handle the situation

    I receive an eMail from TSgt. NCOIC saying that A1C Dumbass is excused from this detail and that she is released for her awards ceremony.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: NCOIC TSgt
    To: Dumbass SrA ; SSgt
    Sent:
    Subject:

    SrA Dumbass,
    We have cleared you to participate in your XXX Commander Call and
    Picnic.

    NCOIC, TSgt, USAF
    NCOIC, Base Honor Guard




    I receive an eMail from A1C Dumbass thanking me and praising me for being a great person and an NCO.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Dumbass SrA
    To: SSgt
    Sent:
    Subject: RE: Latoya's Accident

    SSgt I want to apologize for the way I was acting just moments
    ago I do realize it is my duty to fill my obligations to the Honorgaurd
    and you are a great NCO and Person . I wasn't trying to upset you or
    leave you hanging I was just looking out for myself,, selfishly.. It
    will not happen again.. No disrespect to your position was intended I
    only expected you to do what you had to do.. I am a team player but
    sometimes team members get weak and that was a weak moment once again I
    apologize..Sra Dumbass
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  2. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    Ah, I see now that she's a SrA, oops. I guess she got promoted recently.

    Anyway, I plan on sticking this to her as an LOR. She's had undocumented issues on honor guard before this point... but the previous flight chief didn't even write an MFR over it. However, I hear through the grapevine that she's actually had some issues with her unit in the past, so if I put her in front of her first sergeant that may be all I need to shove this down her throat.
     
  3. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    How is it not? :confused: I gave her an order, she told me "no."

    Not only that, but she lied to an NCO. So it looks like I can build a case from a few different angles. But what you're reading here is the bread and butter. Not only all that, but she has an incredibly poor attitude.


    I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand what you're saying.
     
  4. galek_spoo

    galek_spoo New Member

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    ddooooo eeeeetttttt


    and then set her up with rmt to be reminded that a SSgt still outranks an A1C or SrA. this coming from a SrA too.
     
  5. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    I don't want to have to fry anybody, but now I'm in a position where I need to make an example of her. If I can't push this through, I'm going to lose respect from the rest of my troops and they're all going to line up to have their crack at me.

    I'd rather not spend the rest of my time on honor guard writing up negative paperwork that I can't make stick because I've got no support from my leadership.
     
  6. insomnia

    insomnia New Member

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    Sounds like she needs a reality check, those are all unexcusable IMO. She is setting an example to others around her of what they can get away with that will follow both for their careers. :noes:
     
  7. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    I'm going to check her as hard as I can. It's unfortunate that I can't smack her with an Article 15. But if I can make an LOR stick, I have her ass in a sling for the rest of the time I'm a flight chief on the base honor guard. If she looks at me the wrong way I'll fuck her up.

    This is the type of bullshit I shouldn't ever have to deal with. Instead of spending 20 minutes on the phone assigning four people to this detail I spent all afternoon cleaning up after her mess.
     
  8. insomnia

    insomnia New Member

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    Good, I bet she'd straighten right up with a couple less stripes too :eek5:
     
  9. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    Well, you know how the Air Force is...
     
  10. aphoric

    aphoric Even if god did exist, it would be necessary to ab

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    I know how it would be handled in the Army: Be there or get a article 15.
     
  11. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    Had she not showed up it would have gone from only conduct unbecomming and insubordination, but also failure to go, awol, and/or dereliction of duty.

    Unfortunately, I've never had to write paperwork on somebody. Now I'm writing an LOR. I'm going over any official paperwork I can find on the subject, and looking for examples... anybody have any tips?

    I want this thing to be ready to go by Monday morning so I see if I can get somebody at my office (not related to honor guard) to help me refine it a bit.



    The irony is that this airman is going to have to go through all of this because she wanted to attend an awards ceremony...
     
  12. crucial_fiction

    crucial_fiction Active Member

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    Yeah write her up. I wouldn't stand for that bullshit. You gave her an order she flat out refused and went behind your back to get fixed. She needs to learn what a chain of command is and how it works. <---notice period>
     
  13. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    Yeah, I need to find a way to worm that in there also. I guess I need to break that down into some sort of easy to chew list of offenses.
     
  14. crucial_fiction

    crucial_fiction Active Member

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    Best thing to do in my experience when writing someone up (even though I have a tough time doing it still.) be as clear and concise about what happened as possible and why it was wrong, ie following orders, following SOP for her chain of command etc...
    Whatever you do don't 'pad' it with needless bullshit.
     
  15. insomnia

    insomnia New Member

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    I know the maintenance side, it's a different world. I've called a master sgt a "mother fucker" before (on accident, but to his face :hsugh: ) and not gotten in trouble, but seen people loose stripes over petty aircraft-related shit.
     
  16. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    First of all, thank you for the critique. I take no offense to it as I'm approaching this situation as a learning experience. Every reasonable opinion is welcome.

    She does have a contractual agreement with the honor guard. I will review it to see if it does outline the necessary steps to take if she refuses to fulfill her end of the agreement. I'm sure my NCOIC will be able to provide guidance concerning this.

    For clarification, SSgt. Bob did his job by correcting airman Dumbass. He told her that I was in charge of the manning for this detail, and that if such a change is requested she would have to go through me. If I'm misunderstanding you, please correct me. But that's what it sounds like you're saying.

    At first, yes I did attempt to accomodate this airman. I understand that six months out of your life is dedicated to base honor guard, and it can be quite frustrating as I'm sure you know. That's six months out of your life where yo may or may not get a weekend, where you can't take leave, and where you probably won't get to be involved in any sort of unit activities.

    So when I can, I do my best to work things out so that it makes everybody happy. However, towards the end of my interactions with her, I did lay it down in a way that was quite easy to understand "unless I tell you otherwise, you will be in place at 0500 unless you can provide a replacement." I've never said "this is a direct order" because honestly, I never really felt that it's ever had to be said. I've spent a total of two years on honor guard through my career and I have not once heard those words directed at myself or anybody else.

    I gave her no option to decline, and I feel that I was quite clear on this. On our second interaction I made this 100% clear. However, if she could provide a trained replacement, that's as good as having her there... so that gets her out. I simply felt that if there was something that important to her that I would be willing to do a little extra footwork to see if I could help her out. It's what I hope that my boss would do for me if I needed it.

    But you are right, and that may have been a mistake on my part. Especially with the attitude she came at me with during the first phone call. But if this is only worth an LOC, fuck this Air Force bullshit... it's further justification that I need to get out. If I give somebody an order, as an NCO and their direct supervisor, and they can get away with telling me "no" then I want nothing of this crap. A Marine would have strung this bitch up after a long wall to wall councelling session... and I can't even make it clear to her that this type of behavior is not tolerated. What if her and I are deployed to Baghdad and she disobeys a direct order or even thinks twice about it? What if she, or worse, somebody else gets hurt or killed as a direct result of her inability to follow orders? This lack of discipline makes me ill. I'm in the fucking military, not a day care center.



    Please don't take all the cussing and bad words and such as being directed towards you or anybody else. I'm just venting my frustrations a bit, none of it is really directed towards anybody. So getting all of it out now will help, because when it's time to deal with this in person I need to keep my bearing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2005
  17. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    Inforpics, thank you again to you and your spouse for the great advice. I sincerely appreciate your time.

    An LOR is going to stick and I have my NCOIC's support. In fact, when he, my assistant, and I had our meeting today he already had everything ready to go. All it needed was signatures.

    I've learned a lot through this whole thing. For a short time, at least while I'm in charge of my flight, there will be no more options. I'm going to play Sergeant hardass for a while and get my flight back into shape.

    Hopefully Airman Dumbass will end up a better person because of this. My NCOIC certainly thinks that if I approach it the right way she will be.
     
  18. Zourn

    Zourn 16-bit Ninja OT Supporter

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    I think you did the most appropriate thing, throughout the whole ordeal.
    Major points:

    A) You did what you could to help this person exchange duties for another day so they could attend the ceremony.
    B) You did a LOT of legwork, from my POV, to someone it sounds like you don't even really know, who you definantly didn't owe any favors to.
    C) When you heard something about said person, you contacted them directly first. I cannot stress how much some peon like me appreciates that, instead of just calling their higher-ups right away with what may be only half the story.
    D) They did not do their job, end of story, Dereliction of Duty. Then they insulted you. They fully deserve this LOR, and you not only have the right to, but you SHOULD write them up, they completely asked for it.
     
  19. insomnia

    insomnia New Member

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    :bigthumb:
     
  20. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    Absolutely amazing.

    I had decided to keep it in house at the honor guard. While what she did was a serious offense, our goal is not to hurt her career, but to make her a better person. That said...


    When she reported to me, I read her LOR. My assistant flight chief was present, and informed her that she had three days to formulate a response and showed her where to sign. She actually refused to sign it and decided that she wanted to get her supervisor, first sergeant, and commander involved. Alright, if you want to take this to the next level, do that.

    Her problem is that she felt that we were required to warn her of this, which we were not. Her supervisor called me and asked why she wasn't informed, I told her that it was because we were trying to keep this in house at the honor guard and if she had further questions to contact my NCOIC.

    When my NCOIC returned her unit's legal section called. This airman's perception of the problem is that since we had excused her from the detail, that she should not be receiving paperwork. What she doesn't understand is that we removed her from the detail because she was a problem that we needed to remove. Had she not shown up that morning at 0500, that detail wouldn't have happened.

    Now her first sergeant is going to handle this, and I have a feeling that she's not going to like it.
     
  21. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    My NCOIC talked to some people about the situation, to include a couple of Chief's, and came to the conclusion that Article 87 was appropriate. I think the reasoning behind this was because he did a little digging and found an LOR issued in the past for similar circumstances. After reading this again and looking up the specific article I'm just now realizing just how odd this seems. But, at this point my NCOIC is the one calling the shots, and he seems to be doing the right thing so I'll only question him when I feel that there's something I can learn from it.

    TSgt. NCOIC excused her to remove a problem and he didn't have much time to deal with it, not because he felt that the airman should be where she wanted to be.

    When she said "I'm not signing that because I don't feel that it's appropriate" I was absolutely floored. I actually had to sit back for a second to gather myself, I was that totally surprised. Fortunately my assistant flight chief stepped in and was able to convince her to sign the paperwork. So the idiot wrote a short paragraph stating that she acknowledges the receipt of the LOR but does not feel that she deserves it.

    I don't think she understands that her signature doesn't change the fact that she's getting this. That her signature is just an acknowledgement that the councelling session occured. That she had three days to write that rebuttal she already gave me.

    :uh:
     
  22. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    Here's what she said...

    "I am not signing this LOR it is not justified TSgt NCOIC sent me an email releasing me from the said detail and never told me I would be receiving an LOR. *signed*"
     
  23. ManinCamo

    ManinCamo I wear big boy pants.

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    Uh...
    Core values:
    1) Integrity First
    2) Service before Self
    3) Excellence in all we do

    1) She lied and tried to go over your head to get stuff handled her way
    2) She refused to do this b/c of her personal needs about missing activities
    3) She has a piss poor attitude all around

    REJECT!

    thats my personal take.
     
  24. Short Bus

    Short Bus Beep beep!

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    You're right, and if this airman already has paperwork in her PIF, which I would bet that she does, she just shot herself in the foot by taking this back to her unit.

    What's even more comical is that she's bringing this back to the people who just gave her some sort of award. Now they get to wonder "did she actually deserve this award? Does she deserve this stripe she just sowed on?"

    :uh:
     
  25. ManinCamo

    ManinCamo I wear big boy pants.

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    Whats your rank? just curious


    Yea, she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer
     

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