A&P Collarteral Murder ( photographer murders by US army )

Discussion in 'Lifestyle' started by iRate, Apr 6, 2010.

  1. iRate

    iRate New Member

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    video finally leaked

    Long story short. US military killed 2 two Reuters Photographers and other people mistaking their Cameras for AK-47's and RPGs. Now, a group of people together in a city with objects looking like weapons is very suspicious. its also very hard for the apache gunner to really identify what the object is through grainy optics. their is no way they could have known children were in that van when things are heightened to high alert. Since the apache is looking to give the clear for the squad on ground to come through the city.


    Moral of the story, dont make your photography equipment look like weapons :(

    http://www.youtube.com/v/5rXPrfnU3G0

    http://collateralmurder.com/

    this makes my think twice of ever being a war photographer. ( thought about it when I was younger )
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  2. rOOster14

    rOOster14 New Member

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    this is fucked up.
     
  3. TheManLouisianaFace

    TheManLouisianaFace and decide!

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    I don't see how it looked like a weapon, they formed up for a group photo before he fired, pretty sure they wouldn't be eager to huddle in front of him if it was a gun, and who holds a gun with both hands up against their eyes in front of their face, but I digress, it's a fucked up situation for everyone, and it's obvious that it was not intentional. Undoubtedly those pilots were working long hours and the adrenalin was pumping, mistakes happen in war.

    Not sure why this is a&p material, though?
     
  4. iRate

    iRate New Member

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    cause it deals with photographers.....I dunno. I can remove it if you'd like
     
  5. adamlewis88

    adamlewis88 New Member

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    Wow. That has to be one of the most despicable things I have ever seen in my life. Those pilots need to be to put to death.

    Im one of the most conservative people youll find and I will defend out Military to the end. Ill even agree with people 100% that part of this is simply some of the risk you take when covering a war, but the anxiousness and eagerness to kill people that the pilot has is detestable and condemning. What a low-life piece of shit. I only hope that a most fiery justice will be levied upon his twisted soul for eternity.

    Was it a mistake? Yes.
    Was he chomping at the proverbial bit to shoot and kill all those men? Yes.

    I think when youre that mad with the drive to kill, you see guns where you want to see guns. What makes him any different than a serial killer with a drive to kill? The uniform?
    I cannot accept the explanation of grainy optics in this case...I have to imagine that as easy as it is for us, as photographers to recognize that those WERE cameras, it SHOULD be equally as easy for military soldiers to recognize that those WERE NOT guns or RPGs.

    This is not what the military is for.
     
  6. iRate

    iRate New Member

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    well thats the thing, today we "hire" or bring men aboard that are SOOO eager and trigger happy to kill. It makes me sick. Private military companies like blackwater before being released were full of men that wanted blood from as many people as possible. thats the reason on why their contract was released. Way to many "accidents" of killing the innocent.
     
  7. Keiphus

    Keiphus my dog eats bears

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    This is disgusting.

    The worst part of all this is that I'm sure this happens everyday, and there are other fucks worse than these pilots/gunners that are way too excited to be killing people.
     
  8. Total Xenocide

    Total Xenocide OT Supporter

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  9. rOOster14

    rOOster14 New Member

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    i mean i believe the pilots were also describing a battle that had occurred in the area before we see the video happening/them arriving. and there is one man that truly looks as if he is carrying a weapon...but with that said, i think it was a bit too preemptive and certainly upsetting.
     
  10. TheManLouisianaFace

    TheManLouisianaFace and decide!

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    Adrenaline and amphetamine salt stims and fight or flight mode = amped up to kill.

    It is different, though. killing can be justified, it can have a means to an end, murder, however, never can. You see this bit of moral relativism reflected in our laws—manslaughter vs murder charges.

    These men were not murdering to satisfy some sociopathy, they were killing. Overzealous killing?—yes. But they were acting under a war machine, under orders, in a war zone, and this is what happens, soldiers get punchy. It's the environment.

    Should they get psych evals? Maybe moved to non-combat roles? Wouldn't be a bad idea. Charged with murder? Nope.
     
  11. FlashhslaF

    FlashhslaF New Member

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  12. ov3n

    ov3n Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    /just sayin'
     
  13. adamlewis88

    adamlewis88 New Member

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    They werent murdering to satisfy sociopathic desires? Im pretty sure that the obvious desire expressed to kill along with the obvious frustration when unable to kill satisfies the definition of a sociopath. These men, the one pilot in particular, was obviously more willing to kill this entire group of people rather than take time to actually analyze what is going on. It could not be shown any stronger than when he was practically begging the wounded photographer to pick up a weapon solely so that he could shoot him again. They were not following orders. They were not given orders to go kill whoever they saw. As much as we can infer from the video, they were given orders to patrol, identify threats, then ask for permission to engage any found threats. They werent told to kill people. They were told, IF you think these people are insurgents, you may be able to engage them. There is no excuse that you can offer me that will legitimize the actions carried out by these pilots. I dont even care if they WERE following orders. A normal, healthy, and rational human being who is supposedly trained to identify enemies with weapons, should not willingly kill another person who is holding a cameras even if they are told to. It is inexcusable.

    Again, even if the pilots were poorly trained and honestly could not distinguish between a camera and a rifle, they were exceedingly ready to take the lives of a number of men and even BEGGING for them to pick up weapons so they could CONTINUE to shoot them. They even begged for authorization to shoot the van which was only trying to rescue wounded people.

    I dont care what way you cut it. It is sick and I would say that the pilots need to be put to death. In my eyes, this was murder.

    Youre not changing my mind on this.
     
  14. Gvidon

    Gvidon New Member

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    Makes me sick and the stomach watching it :wtc:

    Only god knows how many innocent people were killed like that.
     
  15. vwpilot

    vwpilot New Member

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    You guys are insane. There is NOTHING wrong in that video. These guys are over watching a group of soldiers. Some of which may or may not have been in battle recently. There is NOTHING in that video that is obvious its a camera and there are moments when some guys are carrying long objects that easily look like RPGs. There is no way to tell there were kids in that van and its a normal thing for insurgents to gather their bodies so that they can us it for propaganda and soldiers are instructed to not allow that.

    Hell, the pilots held off shooting the wounded guy. They were looking to see if he picked up a weapon, they were giving him every benefit of the doubt till the others tried to take him.

    If you guys really think those pilots were out to blatantly murder civilians, you're the sick ones. These guys thought they were protecting their fellow soldiers from guys with guns and rockets, which those looked like. Nothing wrong with anything that went down.

    And for those that think their attitudes were wrong, when your entire life is based on other people shooting at you on a daily basis, you generally have tendencies to want to do your job well and want to get the bastards.

    If you dont want to get shot at, dont go into combat areas with things slung over your shoulder.

    And dont bother responding to me as I'm not going to look at this thread again because this liberal, "I know better than those that are there" bullshit makes me sick.

    If you think you can do better, pick up a rifle and have at it. Till then, do NOT judge those that are.
     
  16. jared_IRL

    jared_IRL OT Supporter

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    I think I agree with vwpilot here...

    The whole thing makes me upset, and so it's kind of hard for me to judge, but it's definitely not easy to do what our soldiers do. Especially in a place where you're not battling an army, you're battling insurgents who mask themselves as civilians. In the circumstances they were in, i'm not sure I could have made any better judgment. I think the way the video is setup makes them look bad, and of course hindsight is 20/20, but...

    Really, the whole situation blows. These guys are fucked if they do, fucked if they don't. Chances are, if they would have hesitated, the guy would have really had an RPG, and everyone in the chopper would be dead...
     
  17. Keiphus

    Keiphus my dog eats bears

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    I dunno...

    You're flying over a battlefield in a helicopter with .50 cals mounted on the sides.... and some towel head is walking around the street with a poster case slung over his shoulder... he doesn't point it at you, they don't really even look at you, and so you circle the building and open fire?

    Seems wrong any way you slice it.

    Having said that, I can see both sides - sort of.

    I watched The Hurt Locker the other day, and on the opening sequence I remember thinking, "I would just shoot the cellphone dude straight in the head. I wouldn't give him a chance to explain why he was outside fucking with electronics while we were trying to disarm a remote activated IED."

    But, this helo situation is still different. The guys on the ground really looked innocent and unprovoking... I can't believe they could be allowed to engage targets like that. Not saying let the bad guys shoot first, but shit at least wait until they point something at you... instead of just nailing them for walking down the street.
     
  18. asdfbunk

    asdfbunk A Member OT Supporter

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    I agree with this pretty much.

    It really sucks that this happened, but when you're protecting your own lives and the lives of your comrades and countrymen, you tend to look at a dangerous situation as more of a risk than it is. Especially when you can't tell if the objects being held are cameras or weapons. Or hell, even weapons disguised as cameras.

    To those calling for death: What would you have done in that situation? What if your hesitation resulted in the death of your entire crew?
     
  19. Keiphus

    Keiphus my dog eats bears

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    I'd like to answer this, although I want to be clear that I'm not calling for the death of these soldiers.

    In another thread someone brought up the name of Marcus Luttrell, a Navy SEAL who released some goat herders who ended up betraying him and killing his whole squad. It's the exact hypothetical to this situation, and although an unfortunate story it works well for this argument.

    In the end, I think you walk away and let the goat herders go. Is there a chance they will come back and nuke your whole squad? Yes. But it's what separates our military from theirs. I'm not saying you should be an idiot and get fucked, obviously you make the best decisions given the data....but in the end you don't open fire on (read: kill) someone you aren't SURE is an enemy.
     
  20. asdfbunk

    asdfbunk A Member OT Supporter

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    That's the point though, for the most part, people in those situations are damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Survival instinct is very strong in most people, and unfortunately when a lot of lives are on the line, people will choose to end the life of those that pose a risk to them.

    As for myself, I don't know what I would have done in that situation. I'm glad I don't have to make those choices, as I would not be able to live with myself either way. I will not pass judgment on someone when I myself cannot say what actions I would have taken in their situation.
     
  21. GlobeGuy

    GlobeGuy New Member

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    Knowing who those men were, it made me sick to watch that video, and prayed that they don't open fire. Although I knew that they would.

    The guy peeking around the wall looked like he was taking cover and was pointing something toward the gunship. I don't know who said that what they were carrying clearly looked like a camera but it didn't seem so clear to me.

    To me, it didn't seem like the soldiers were trigger happy. They seem to have followed their SOPs, and if that system failed us and ultimately the soldiers who followed it (can you imagine watching this thing if you were the man behind the gun?) we need to revisit that system and fix it. Not crucify the soldiers who followed that system.

    It was absolutely wrong for the military to cover this shit up though. Should have been forthcoming and let those kids be taken to US hospital.
     
  22. shiba

    shiba Active Member

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    Anyone recognize what body and lens he was carrying?
     
  23. bobasaur

    bobasaur New Member

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    :wtc: wow, terrible
     
  24. Pitt

    Pitt 1-1-11 — Never Forget OT Supporter

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    I'd say it was a

    [​IMG]

    Canon
     
  25. Pitt

    Pitt 1-1-11 — Never Forget OT Supporter

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    sorry, I had to :o
     

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