LGBT Closeted On-Topic

Discussion in 'Lifestyle' started by sholnay, Feb 20, 2007.

  1. sholnay

    sholnay New Member

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    I don’t think we have enough of this in here.

    I think the only way to grow is to hear others opinions, ESPECIALLY when they differ from your own. It’s easy to listen to someone talk about something you really believe in and agree with – it’s also boring.

    It’s much more fruitful, exciting, and engaging to listen to someone talk with authority on a subject that you hold differing views on.

    I ask that maybe we have a serious discussion here, as of late there have not been any topics beyond holidays and sex, with the occasional main forum thread move (not that those are bad :naughty:)

    This last weekend got me thinking about a particular topic that is very prevalent today. I have always known there is a movement within the queer community that doesn’t want gay marriage. It wasn’t until this weekend that I finally heard a viewpoint expressing the concerns for the gay marriage movement, and they were very shockingly coherent and legitimate.

    I personally still, very much so, wish to have the ability to marry whomever I want – without a loss of government defined benefits awarded to those who are normal. I say normal specifically without quotes because no matter how bad we want to be normal, we aren’t considered it – and won’t be for a while. Which also brings up the question, why do we want to be normal? Is that really what we are fighting for, Normalcy? Isn’t it better to push the bounds of normal, and even break them – rather than try to fit in to the box that has been etched in stone for so many years? We are pushing to gain ground on this societal construct that all people must have one partner, and it must be of the opposite sex. I want to know what is after that? What is after gay marriage? Will gay marriage fix our problems? (that’s really a silly question I know – but some see it as the end all solution).

    I really want to hear others opinions on marriage, especially in our community. I also beg others to question their own beliefs. The number one requirement for this thread should be open minds. Most of us claim to have open minds, but how open are they really? Do you practice what you preach? The queer umbrella, while united in the fact that we are different and generally proud, is very divided internally.

    Possible future topics (at least ones that I am interested in are):
    - The T in LGBT
    - Sexual fluidity (somewhat ties in to the bullet above.
    - Privilege (a very new topic to me - is that a coincidence seeing as I’m a white male?)
    - Gays in the military (already having a slight discussion about it in one of the other threads)

    Anyway – not sure if anyone else is interested in this or not - I sure hope some of you are – I just feel like there is so much to learn and what better than to get personal experiences, testimonials, and especially opinions on topics that we are all so divided on – all while staying in our nice little closet space of OT. Maybe those of you who dont know much about these topics will also learn and benefit.

    -Shaun (yes, I do sign some of my posts... oh how gay ;))

    no cliffs.

    ibthreadbackfire:hs:
     
  2. Diesel Freak

    Diesel Freak ♂♂ Closet Crew OT Supporter

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    Shaun, I like where you're going with this thread. :h5:

    I need more time to think about this topic, but to start, I'm all for equal marriage rights for everyone. In my mind, it's not a push for normalcy, because I honestly think that being normal is boring and overrated. We're each individuals, and it's our differences that make us unique, interesting, and exciting.

    I want to have the opportunity to commit myself to the person who I love, and be able to share everything in my life with that person. Part of that commitment is marriage, regardless of whether it's used in the religious or legal sense. Sure, one can argue that you can share your life with someone without technically being married, but I want the opportunity and the freedom to make the decision for myself.

    And with that, it's late, I'm rambling, and quite possibly not making any sense... so I'll put the rest of my thoughts off until tomorrow or something. :wiggle:
     
  3. XPX

    XPX New Member

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    I'll be reading and not voicing my opinions in this matter because I have very opposite points of view and to be honest I'm quite confused about my own sexuality and if gays should marry or not. For a gay guy I don't think we are normal people but we are not defective, we are just different, I see it like we were born in a completely different country...like a cultural background just like Japanese are different from British and Latino. Part of the problem is focused that here where I live married couples have little to no benefits so getting married is just a matter of religious beliefs and tradition, gays that get married (illegaly) do it just because of that. I see nothing past it. If I were to live with a person I wouldn't plan on marrying him...or at least wouldn't give it a high priority. I don't need a ring and a priest to commit myself to one person and be loyal to it, my own word is stronger.

    What were their pov on this, Shaun?
     
  4. bioyuki

    bioyuki Ich habe Angst

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    What's privilege?
     
  5. sholnay

    sholnay New Member

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    Privilege: a special advantage or immunity or benefit not enjoyed by all.

    I don't know if you're serious or not :o

    Everyone has some sort of privilege, I, as an example - will always have white-male privilege. Its usually not something we consciously take part of. It's not really something you can fight either, rather, it just helps to be aware of the situations you are in, and the privilege you might be receiving in those situations compared to others. A crude example is that I might be able to walk in to a jewelry store and not be given a second look - where as a person of color can walk in to the store and not receive the same indifference.
     
  6. sholnay

    sholnay New Member

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    Firstly - the point of this thread is so everyone can voice their opinions - no matter how off kilter with the norm - how obtuse you might think - I want to hear differing points of view on the topic - I DON'T want to start a dialog only to have everyone agree with the initial POV. We are all unique and I damn well know we all have our own opinions on things. And if you dont, maybe you need to start looking in to yourself and your identity and your place in life a little deeper (im not speaking to you directly here XPX).

    and second:
    Is gay marriage a big issue in the UK like it is here in the US? It doesn't sound like it is - so obviously you will have differing opinions on it. I'm curious though because you say that you benefit "little-to-none" if you're married. Even if its a "little" bit of benefit that goes to straight couples, doesn't that make it wrong? You are now a second class citizen - not sharing the same rights and privileges as others.

    Our discussion was on the US - where it is one of the most talked about - most argued - most brought up topic in the news today (note: I have no basis for this statement other than what I see). It seems like I cant go a day without hearing something about a protest, or a rally, or a grouping of people either for or against gay marriage. MAYBE anna nicole smith rivals gay marriage right now, but she'll pass in the news - whereas gay marriage is here to stay :mamoru:
     
  7. camarosrool

    camarosrool yes i am

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    i have to organize my thoughts
    ill be back to this thread later today
    (pro gay marriage, although I will list my reasons and frustrations later)
     
  8. NOVAJock

    NOVAJock Modded & Underrated

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    The homosexual community needs to be careful that they are NOT fighting for priveleges, but rather EQUAL RIGHTS.
     
  9. XPX

    XPX New Member

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    I didn't mind you directing that comment towards me because you are right, I waited too long to accept that I'm gay and I'm just starting to tell my closest friends and accepting the idea, its now when I'm starting to think seriously about it and shaping my own pov on some things :) my place in life is a little confusing right now because I have other issues that are more important than my sexuality :o

    I'm not in the UK :o
    Here where I live people still don't talk openly about such things, it never goes to the news and sure as fuck its not legal...
     
  10. RougeOgre

    RougeOgre FS Librarian and MOD

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    I think my brother and his partner should have just as much right to marry as my husband and I. Hell, they have been together longer than my first marriage lasted. I'd give their marriage a better chance of being "forever" over several of my hetero friends. I belive they deserve the same options for medical benefits, retirement etc as other married folks.
     
  11. ExDelayed

    ExDelayed New Member

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    Ill reply to the marriage topic either later today or tomorrow morning. Nearing the end of my workday and am sleepy. :(
     
  12. TheMustafa

    TheMustafa hook 'em

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    Marriage is a purely LEGAL instutition. it has nothing to do with committment, procreation, the "normalcy" of homosexuality (as if its not seen in almost every higher-order animal population... and who or what is "normal" anyway), or anything else. Its simply designed to afford people who have chosen to share their lives together legal protections and advantages under the law. (and i watched brokeback mountain for the first time last night, and it turned me into a teary-eyed bitch.)

    I feel like gay marriage would only have a positive impact on society - by strengthening the legal and financial ties between two people, the family unit is made stronger, and society indirectly benefits as a whole.

    Opening a business is a good metaphor to illustrate this point, as the "family unit" is really just a small business anyway. People who want to go into business together incorporate their business, protecting both of them, people they do business with, and affording advantages to the company which make it easier to be successful. Successful small business = growing economy = society benefits as a whole. These same ideas pertain to marriage, regardless of who is getting married.

    I've been harping on the "society benefits as a whole" point because, in addition to the point above, we supposedly live under a more or less democratic system. As such, the basic premise of a system such as ours is that everyone has inalienable rights as human beings, and in order to take away those rights, compelling reasons much be given which show that society benefits from restricting those rights. I havent heard any good "gay marriage fucks up society" arguments from anyone other than right-wing conservaties using moral arguments based on religion, and since we dont legislate morality (supposedly), these arguments are moot.



    (nice thread shaun :wavey:)
     
  13. sholnay

    sholnay New Member

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    Are you saying civil unions are enough?
     
  14. NOVAJock

    NOVAJock Modded & Underrated

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    At this point, I don't care what they call it. All I care about is that gay couples are offered the exact same rights and tax advantages as married heterosexual couples.
     
  15. sholnay

    sholnay New Member

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    I really want this too - but at the same time, I have this nagging voice in my head that tells me "you're still not viewed as equal" all because of one word.

    am I crazy?
     
  16. sholnay

    sholnay New Member

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    after reading a few articles and talking to some friends - I'm still no better off on this topic.

    One argument AGAINST gay marriage, from the gay side of the argument is - Why is Marriage looked upon as the be-all-end-all of relationships. Marriage is looked upon as this magical force that is the best form of relationship out there - when in reality, marriage has been proven to be a flawed institution in a lot of cases, perhaps if we spent more effort investigating our own emotions and figuring out what works for each of us individually, we could get further as a society. Marriage, whether you like it or not, is a multi-billion dollar industry that exploits a lot of people every year, and a lot of people multiple times a life.

    So - thats one other facet to the argument.

    As Nova said, it comes down to civil rights and equality under the law - I agree 100% with this - but maybe we should be demanding more of ourselves than settling with marriage - it is, afterall, a flawed institution...
     
  17. RougeOgre

    RougeOgre FS Librarian and MOD

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    I have to say that I never really looked at marriage from this point of view before but it makes a lot of sense. Especially since I claim no specific religion, so I can't say I believe in marriage as some mystical religious thing.
     

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