Clen everything you wanted to know and more

Discussion in 'Fitness & Nutrition' started by spoofy, Jan 12, 2004.

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  1. spoofy

    spoofy Chemically Enhanced

    Aug 21, 2001
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    quite a few people have been asking about clen and others have mistaken 'fake' clen as the real thing.. so... may as well clear some things up. Please feel free to add info

    Clenbuterol handbook
    by BigAndy69

    What is Clenbuterol?

    Clenbuterol is a beta-2 agonist and is used in many countries as a broncodilator
    for the treatment of asthma. Because of it's long half life, clenbuterol is not
    FDA approved for medical use. It is a central nervous system stimulant and acts
    like adrenaline. It shares many of the same side effects as other CNS stimulants
    like ephedrine. Contrary to popular belief, Clenbuterol has a half life of 35
    hours and not 48 hours.

    Dosing and Cycling

    Clenbuterol comes in 20mcg tablets, although it is also available in syrup, pump
    and injectable form. It's also available as a powder in some areas. Doses are
    very dependent on how well the user responds to the side effects, but somewhere
    in the range of 4-8 tablets per day for men and 2-4 tablets a day for women is
    most common. Clenbuterol loses its thermogenic effects after around 8 weeks when
    body temperature drops back to normal. Its anabolic/anti-catabolic properties
    fade away at around the 18 day mark. Taking the long half life into
    consideration, the most effective way of cycling clen is 2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off
    for no more than 12 weeks. Ephedrine or Yohimbine can be used in the off weeks.

    Clenbuterol vs Ephedrine vs DNP

    Ephedrine will raise metabolic levels by about 2-3 percent and 200mg of DNP
    raises metabolic levels by about 30 percent. Clenbuterol raises metabolic levels
    about 10 percent and it can raise body temperature several degrees.

    DNP is by far the most effective fat burner but many people will never use it
    because of the risks associated with it. It also offers no anti-catabolic
    benefit. Although it does have anti-catabolic effect, ephedrine's short
    half-life prevents it from being all that effective.

    As far as side effects, Clenbuterol's are certainly milder than DNP's, and some
    would even say milder than an ECA stack. There is no ECA-style crash on
    Clenbuterol and many users find it easier on the prostate and sex drive. This
    may in part be due to the fact that Clen is generally used for only 2 weeks at a

    Side effects


    The most significant side effects are muscle cramps, nervousness, headaches, and
    increased blood pressure.

    Muscle cramps can be avoided by drinking 1.5-2 gallons of water and consuming
    bananas and oranges or supplementing with potassium tablets at 200-400mg a
    day taken before bed on an empty stomach. Taurine at 3-5grams is a necessity in
    minimizing cramps.

    Headaches can easily be avoided with Tylenol Extra Strength taking at the first
    signs of a headache.

    Common Uses

    Post-Cycle Therapy: Clen is used post cycle to aid in recovery. It allows the
    user to continue eating large amounts of food, without worrying about adding
    body fat. It also helps the user maintain more of his strength as well as his
    intensity in the gym. Diet: Roughly the same as on cycle.

    Fat loss: The most popular use for Clen, it also increases muscle hardness,
    vascularity, strength and size on a caloric deficit. For the most significant
    fat loss, Clen can be stacked with T3. Diet: A high protein(1.5g per lb of
    bodyweight), moderate carb(0.5g to 1g per lb of bodyweight), low fat diet(0.25g
    per lb of bodyweight) seems to work best with Clen.

    Alternative to Steroids: Clenbuterol has mild steroid-like properties and can be
    used by non-AS using bodybuilder to increase LBM as well as strength and muscle
    hardness. Diet: A moderate carb, high protein, moderate fat diet work well.

    Stimulant/Performance Enhancement: It can be used as a stimulant, but an ECA
    stack may be a better choice because of it's much shorter half-life. Diet: To
    take full advantage of the stimulatory effects of Clen, carbohydrates must be
    included in the diet. Ketogenic diets do not work well in this case.

    Precautions: Is Clen for you?

    The same precautions that apply to Ephedrine must be applied to Clen, although
    some people find ECA stacks are harsher than Clen. It should not be stacked
    with other CNS stimulants such as Ephedrine and Yohimbine. These combinations
    are unnecessary and potentially dangerous. Caffeine can be used in moderation
    before a workout for an extra quick. burst of energy.

    A word on Ketotifen

    Ketotifen is safe antihistamine used extensively some European countries to
    treat asthma and allergies. It can up regulate beta-2-receptors that Clen down
    regulates. Basically, it allows users to extend their use of Clen for 6-8 weeks
    at a time. 2-3mg a day is ideal, 10mg as found in "superclen" can make users
    extremely drowsy. It also increases the effectiveness of Clen so doses must be
    adjusted accordingly. The downfall of this drug is its ability to induce
    extreme hunger is some people, which is not a desirable state to be in when

    Cycling Clenbuterol

    Most users that report bad side effects and discontinue use are those who use
    high doses right at the start of the cycle. The worst side effects occur within
    the first 3-4 days of use.

    A first time user should not exceed 40mcg the first day. Increase by one tab
    until the side effects are not tolerable

    Example of a first cycle:

    Day1: 20mcg
    Day2: 40mcg
    Day3: 60mcg
    Day4: 80mcg
    Day5: 80mcg(Note: Increase the dose only when the side effects are tolerable)
    Day6-Day12: 100mcg
    Day13: 80 mcg (Tapering is not necessary, but it helps some users get back to
    normal gradually)
    Day14: 60 mcgs
    Day15: off
    Day16: off
    Day 17: ECA/ NYC stack

    Example of a second cycle:

    Day1: 60mcg
    Day2: 80mcg
    Day3: 80mcg
    Day4: 100mcg
    Day5: 100mcg
    Day6-Day12: 120mcg
    Day13: 100 mcg
    Day14: 80 mcgs
    Day15: off
    Day16: off
    Day 17: ECA/ NYC stack

    What else do I need to know?

    Taurine MUST be used with Clen at 3-5g daily. Clenbuterol depletes taurine
    levels in the liver which stops the conversion of T4 to T3 in the liver.
    Taurine allows the user to avoid the dreaded rebound effect and painful muscle
    cramps. It's a must with Clen.

    Clenbuterol should not be taken too close to a workout. It can interfere with
    your breathing and complete ruin your workout. When doing cardio, it's
    advisable to stay at a consistent pace and avoid HIIT style routines.

    Do not take Clen Past 4pm and drink plenty of water; 1.5-2 gallons a day
  2. spoofy

    spoofy Chemically Enhanced

    Aug 21, 2001
    Likes Received:
    from bigcat at



    Clenbuterol is a very widely used drug and has quite a reputation. A good one among athletes and recreational users, and a very bad one among those people who know very little about illegal performance enhancing aids. Its not a steroid. In fact, the only medical use for which clenbuterol is generally prescribed (and now being less and less prescribed thanks to its illegitimate use) is for obstructions of the air-way. People with chronic breathing disorders like asthma use this as a bronchodilator to make breathing easier. But its only one of the many things that can be achieved with the use of clenbuterol.

    In terms of action this drug is best likened to the now also illegal ephedrine and its legal replacement, ma huang. All of them operate mainly by increasing the manufacture and secretion of catabolic hormones known as cathecholamines (like dopamine, epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine (noradrenaline)) which are secreted from the adrenal region. Now these hormones have a wide variety of functions. First of all they seem to alter the contractile characteristics of smooth muscle, but very specifically. Some will apparently be stimulated, and others inhibited. Amongst those inhibited, the smooth muscles in the bronchial tree, which explains its soothing effect in patients with breathing problems. What it also does is increase thermogenisis. This usually encompasses a rise in blood pressure, a stimulatory effect of the heart muscle and a resulting rise in body temperature.

    Along with the reversing of the effects of insulin (and inhibiting the action of insulin) which results in a release of glycogen back into the blood stream as glucose and an inability to store or use more glycogen, it will increase the rate of protein and fat being burned in the body. For bodybuilders that appears to be the primary use of the drug. This thermogenisis and an increase in the rate of fat being burned usually has as a result that the metabolic rate of the subject its much higher and he burns more calories. This in turn results in loss of adipose tissue (the shedding of fat in other words) revealing a leaner physique with cuts and striations. The downside to this effect is that there is a concomitant rise in the rate of protein being burned. Where fat is robbed from the fatty tissue in the body, protein is generally robbed from the muscle. As with all catabolic hormones, in time muscle loss can and will occur. Which is why many opt to use this compound during a cycle of anabolic steroids that will help preserve the lean body mass while reducing the fat.

    Among the other actions that cathecholamines have is an increase in aerobic capacity (facilitated by the easier breathing), a stimulation of the nervous system (facilitated by norepinephrine and acetylcholine release) and thus the skeletal muscle system, an increase in oxygen transportation (facilitated by the increased blood pressure) and an increase in vigil. These characteristics in turn combine to make this drug particularly interesting for athletes doing endurance sports and needing a boost. Especially in middle-long running numbers, this drug is widely abused and its no secret that in cycling circles clenbuterol in liquid form is combined with a painkiller and the drug EPO (synthetic erythropoeitin, a renal hormone) which increases the manufacture of red blood cells. It is then injected along the road, thereby avoiding positive tests prior to the race. Needless to say such a cocktail is very hazardous to the cardiovascular system. Just to demonstrate the wide use of this drug and its immense popularity among athletes, observe the US Olympic team. Exercise-induced asthma is an afflmiction that generally occurs in 3-7% of the population, and is in some rare cases treated with clenbuterol. In 2000 60% of US Olympic athletes claimed to have exercise-induced asthma and ALL of them were prescribed clenbuterol for this condition. An otherwise illegal drug, tolerated solely for this reason. And this while the Romanian gymnast Andrea Raducan was stripped of her gold medal for the 25 µg of norephedrine in her cold medicin she was taking...

    In several animal studies1,2,3 Clenbuterol was also shown to act as an anabolic, believed to be able to impart muscle gains. This was never demonstrated in humans4 however, and there is more evidence that its effect on catabolic hormones invokes the opposite. In any case, the animal studies used much higher doses5 then one would safely recommend for humans. The late Dan Duchaine, by many held in high regard as a steroid guru and a former writer of the now defunct MM2K, believed it had something to do with the stimulation of a third beta receptor, which was different in humans as opposed to other mammals, and that this was the reason humans did not receive any anabolic benefits. As with most of what Dan said, this is very questionable, but one of many possible explanations in a debate that still rages on. Despite the many claims of other bodybuilders that still swear it has some form of anabolic action, I must say I've seen enough proof to the contrary to strongly advise against buying clenbuterol for promoting muscle mass. You may be more than sorely disappointed. Next time you see a 230 pound, 6 foot top-level cyclist, let me know and I may change my mind.

    Clenbuterol, when used for its fat-burning properties is best used in a pyramid scheme. Slowly building up the dose may be more important that tapering off of it, as most first time users will rarely if ever know how they will react. Because of the effects on blood pressure its best to start with 20-40 µg per day and slowly work your way up increasing the dose every 3 days by 20 µg, to a maximum of 120-160 µg (most find 80 µg to be adequate). Its also best not used for long periods of time. Body homeostasis seems to negate the excitatory and inhibitive functions of clenbuterol over time, creating a complacency effect. It loses most of its nerve stimulation and fat burning benefits after 3-4 weeks, and using it longer on end would be futile. The user is best to discontinue use for an equal period of time and then recommence again.

    Another thing people should be aware of is the inherent liver toxicity associated with clenbuterol use. When stacking with oral 17-alpha-alkylated steroids, accutane, anti-biotics or other hepatoxic elements, one should have his liver values checked by a licensed physician at regular points in time to avoid all problems. If you not a yellow discoloration of the skin cease use immediately and contact your doctor.

    Stacking and Use:

    Clenbuterol should be built up and tapered off gradually with dosage increases and decreases every 3-4 days and doses never exceeding 160 µg per day to be perfectly safe. Its mostly used for periods of 2-3 weeks then discontinued for equal periods of time to disallow the body to adapt to the effects of the drug. For fat-burning goals clenbuterol is often stacked with another fat-burning agent for quick effect, or alternated with another fat-burning agent by people who need to stay lean on a year-round basis. Usually cytomel (T3) is used for such purposes, with alternating cycles of 3 weeks each. If used together, cycles will not completely overlap, but differ slightly so as not to match the low doses with the low and the high doses with the high. A typical cycle for clenbuterol might be 3 weeks, with the daily amounts being 40/40/40/60/60/60/80/80/80/100/100/100/80/80/80/60/60/60/40/40/40 µg/day. Then stopping for three weeks and recommencing.

    It's also commonly stacked with anabolic steroids. Usually non-aromatizing steroids that give the user a leaner and harder look, and allow for less water retention. They serve a main purpose of allowing the user to keep as much of his hard-earned muscle mass as he tries to shed the fat he has stocked up in the off-season with catabolic precursors such as clenbuterol. Clenbuterol is generally regarded as fairly safe6, hence its wide-spread use. It should be disadvised for all with blood pressure and/or previously diagnosed cardio-vascular problems. But most tolerate it quite well. By building up the dose over time they usually see when they've reached a dose that becomes too harsh. The use of clenbuterol will elicit higher body temperature, higher blood pressure and in some, especially at high doses, insomnia and jitters. Though these should not be nearly as pronounced with clenbuterol as they are with ephedrine and its legal counterpart ma huang. They are also easily remedied by shifting doses around so you don't take clenbuterol in the hours leading up to bedtime and most of it in pre-training phases when the drug can enhance your training vigor.

    Another good match for clenbuterol in a stack is the plant derivative yohimbine Hcl. It does concern the standardized product yohimbine here and not the raw material yohimbe, which is useless. In small doses of 20-30 mg per day, it can stop the down-regulation of the noradrenaline feedback mechanisms, that usually inhibit the actions of noradrenaline by reducing receptor affinity. This has two important uses. The first is that the length of action of clenbuterol can be enhanced by a few hours when using it together with yohimbine Hcl (although it already has a considerable half-life time7 of 36 hours and one daily dose should suffice) , and the second is that concomitant use of yohimbine Hcl may allow clenbuterol to induce its fatburning aspects on a longer term than the normal 2-3 weeks, so it can be used for 5-6 weeks instead. Yohimbine Hcl is, at least for now still, a legal supplement that can be acquired for very little money from legal sources and supplement companies.


    1 Ricart-Firinga C, Stevens L, Canu MH, Nemirovskaya TL, Mounier Y. Effects of beta(2)-agonist clenbuterol on biochemical and contractile properties of unloaded soleus fibers of rat. Am J Physiol Cell Physiol 2000 Mar; 278 (3) : C582-8

    2 Hayes A, Williams DA. Long-term clenbuterol administration alters the isometric contractile properties of skeletal muscle from normal and dystrophin-deficient mdx mice. Clin Exp Pharmacol Physiol 1994 Oct; 21 (10) : 757-65

    3 Maltin CA, Delday MI, Hay SM, Smith FG, Lobley GE, Reeds PJ. The effects of the anabolic agent, clenbuterol, on overloaded rat skeletal muscle. Biosci Rep 1987 feb; 7 (2) :143-9

    4 Human fat cell beta-adrenergic receptors : beta-agonist dependent lipolytic reponses and characterization of beta-adrenergic bindingsiteson human fat cell membranes with highly selective beta-1 agonists. J lipid Res 1988 May; 29 (5) : 587-601

    5 Prather ID, Brown DE, North P, Wilson JR. Clenbuterol : a substitute for anabolic steroids ? Med Sci Sports Exerc 1995 Aug; 27 (8) : 1118-21

    6 Su WJ, Perng RP. Spiorpent (clenbuterol) : another choice for patients with chronic irreversible airway obtsructions. Chung Hua I Hsueh Tsa Chih (Taipei) 1991 Jan; 47 (1) : 13-7

    7 Meinen K, Rahn M, Hermer M, Rominger KL, Kanitz T. Oral tocolytic therapy with clenbuterol - clinical facts. Z Geburtshilfe Perinatol 1988 Jul ; 192 (4) : 163-8
  3. spoofy

    spoofy Chemically Enhanced

    Aug 21, 2001
    Likes Received:
    CAS Name: 4-Amino-3,5-dichloro-α-[[(1,1-dimethylethyl)amino]methyl]benzenemethanol
    Additional Names: 4-amino-α-[(tert-butylamino)methyl]-3,5-dichlorobenzyl alcohol
    Molecular Formula: C12H18Cl2N2O
    Molecular Weight: 277.20
    Percent Composition: C 52.00%, H 6.55%, Cl 25.58%, N 10.11%, O 5.77%
    Derivative Type: Hydrochloride
    Molecular Formula: C12H18Cl2N2O.HCl
    Molecular Weight: 313.66
    Percent Composition: C 45.95%, H 6.11%, Cl 33.91%, N 8.93%, O 5.10%
    Properties: Colorless microcrystalline powder from isopropyl alc, mp 174-175.5°. Very sol in water, methanol, ethanol, slightly sol in chloroform. Insol in benzene. LD50 in mice, rats, guinea pigs (mg/kg): 176, 315, 67.1 orally; 27.6, 35.3, 12.6 i.v. (Ueberberg).
  4. spoofy

    spoofy Chemically Enhanced

    Aug 21, 2001
    Likes Received:

    that is NOT clen!
  5. Filmboy44

    Filmboy44 Guest

    :big grin: nice post....sticky icky oooooooohhhh
  6. spoofy

    spoofy Chemically Enhanced

    Aug 21, 2001
    Likes Received:
    real clen

  7. spoofy

    spoofy Chemically Enhanced

    Aug 21, 2001
    Likes Received:
    It clen illegal to take?
    yes. unless you have a perscription for the drug. Most docs no longer perscribe clen due to the increase in body temp and raise in blood pressure. Some places sell clen in a liquid form for RESEARCH, those sites asume that the people buying the products are professionals and you are generally asked to agree to use it for research reasons. Generally Liquid clen is way underdosed and generally the sources are vary shady.

    As you can guess bodybuilders dont use liquid clen for research reasons... so .. could buying from these sites get you arrested?

    Posted by: Citruscide and Rick Collins
    Saturday, September 20, 2003

    Chemicals Sold "For Research Purposes Only"

    [An Interview by Citruscide*, done exclusively for Chemical Muscle, Elite Fitness, and -- any duplication, cutting and pasting, or transferal of the entire or any portion of this interview is strictly prohibited by U.S. Copyright Law and will be a violation thereof.]

    The proliferation of chemical products being sold online “for research purposes only” has generated countless inquiries about what’s legal and what’s not. Nobody wants to get busted out of ignorance, of course. I sat down with Rick Collins, New York lawyer, founder of, and author of the definitive book on anabolic steroids and bodybuilding drugs, Legal Muscle (, in an effort to shine a little light into this very dark area.

    Citruscide (C): Thanks for offering to share your thoughts on this topic. I can imagine what your schedule is like.

    Rick (R): Well, thanks to you for taking the time to do this interview and to offer your thoughts as well, big guy.

    C: Let’s start with this: What’s wrong with buying and selling chemical products?

    R: Generally, nothing. Chemicals are bought and sold every day. Hydrogen peroxide, ammonium hydroxide, benzyl alcohol, and on and on and on. But, as you know, there are some restrictions.

    C: Such as controlled substances, for example?

    R: Yes. Any chemicals that are designated as a “controlled substance,” “controlled substance analogue,” or “listed chemical” have restrictions on them. Those terms are defined by Section 802 of Title 21 of the United States Code. The Code is our big book of the laws passed by Congress. Unless we indicate otherwise, people can find all the sections of federal law that we’re going to talk about in Title 21 of the Code.

    C: Obviously, the DEA has an interest in any illegal conduct involving controlled substance chemicals or their analogues. What about the FDA? What interest does the FDA have in chemicals?

    R: None, unless the chemicals are food, drugs, devices, cosmetics, or dietary supplements for humans or animals. And there has to be the interstate commerce aspect. But the chemical products we’re discussing aren’t being explicitly sold as any of these things. They’re being sold purportedly as chemicals for research purposes only.

    C: So they fall outside the jurisdiction of the FDA?

    R: Yes, as long as they don’t fit the definition of any of those articles that the FDA has jurisdiction over. But here’s the problem. And it could become a big problem for someone in the future. The FDA’s opinion on the issue may differ from somebody else’s. The product may be sold as one thing, but the FDA may say it’s something else – for example, they may say it’s a drug.

    C: What exactly is a “drug”?

    R: Check out Section 321(g) of that Title 21 we mentioned. The current definition is there in its entirety. Basically, any chemical or product recognized as a drug by the United States Pharmacopoeia or other official compendium is a drug. But official recognition is only one way that a chemical can be a drug. Let me say that again. Just because it’s not in the official books or approved by the FDA doesn’t mean it’s not a drug. The other way that an article can be deemed to be a drug is if it is intended to be used as a drug.

    C: How does the law define when something is intended to be used as a drug?

    R: Well, in two ways. Again, it’s in Section 321(g). The term “drug” means “articles intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease in man or other animals.” It also means “articles (other than food) intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of man or other animals.” So, prescription medicines are drugs, but so are many over-the-counter products including fluoride toothpaste, dandruff shampoos and sunscreens.

    C: So, if you sell a chemical product claiming it will cure or prevent heart disease or treat kidney dysfunction or make you grow taller, you can turn it into a drug under the law?

    R: Yes. Just by the claims. The crucial issue is what the product is intended to do. Dietary supplement companies have to be careful about what claims they make. Otherwise, they can be targeted by the FDA and have to argue over whether their product is a dietary supplement or an unapproved and illegal new drug.

    C: Okay, so as far as chemical products which are clearly not intended for consumption or administration to humans or animals at all, how could the FDA claim to have jurisdiction? The products aren’t food, drugs, devices, cosmetics or dietary supplements.

    R: They can’t as long as it’s clear. That’s the rub. Sometimes, it’s not so clear what they’re intended for, and it can be a point of argument. Take the substance IGF-1, for example. You might claim say it’s being sold just for research purposes, but the FDA might claim otherwise.

    C: But if the supplier explicitly labels the product, “Not For Human Consumption” or words to that effect, how can the government argue otherwise?

    R: The perfect example is 1,4-butanediol. Many people were arrested last year in an Internet-based DEA investigation into sales of the chemical. That’s because the government decided that butanediol fits the definition of a controlled substance analogue due to its similarities to GHB, a scheduled controlled substance. In situations where an analogue is intended for human consumption, it can be treated just like a controlled substance. But here’s the interesting part. Many of the people selling butanediol had web site disclaimers and product warning labels explicitly telling people not to consume it. They were prosecuted anyway, and many of them have been convicted.

    C: Even though they gave disclaimers and warnings not to consume it?

    R: Yes. The government’s theory was that in some instances the disclaimers and warnings were a sham. The government asserted that the words were not put there to actually warn consumers, but were just an attempt to evade a criminal prosecution.

    C: They would have needed evidence to back that up.

    R: Absolutely. Frankly, in some cases I suspect that the defense lawyers failed to aggressively punch holes in the prosecution theories. But, generally, the government built their prosecutions on circumstantial evidence. In some cases, the product had previously been sold as a dietary supplement, with marketing hype about its nutritional benefits. Then, when GHB was scheduled, the product was re-labeled as a “cleaning solution” with no change in the formula. The products were continued to be sold on web sites having nothing to do with household cleaning, but focused on human nutrition and fitness. They were sometimes infused with pina colada or other fruity additives, alleged to be “scents” but arguably flavoring. They were sold at prices that the government argued nobody would ever pay for cleaning products. But most damaging of all, some defendant-suppliers made private statements, recorded by the government or preserved in emails or discussion board posts, about how to consume the product.

    C: So, they directly contradicted their own disclaimers and warnings?

    R: Yes. Saying the product is intended only for cleaning or research purposes doesn’t automatically protect the supplier, if he’s caught saying otherwise elsewhere.

    C: The DEA went after butanediol as a claimed analogue of the controlled substance, GHB. Would they be interested in chemicals that are not controlled substances or analogues of controlled substances?

    R: No. It would generally be an issue for the FDA, and for the Postal Inspector if the mail were involved. An exception, by the way, is human growth hormone, which is not a federally controlled substance but the DEA is specifically authorized to investigate distribution offenses.

    C: What about the situation where a chemical might be a recognized drug, but it’s sold in a raw or liquid form for research purposes?

    R: It depends whether the chemical fits the definition of a drug in its raw or liquid form. That can depend on whether the government buys the argument that the chemical really is intended for research purposes, or whether, as in the butanediol cases, it’s really intended for human consumption. It would be an issue to be determined on a case by case basis.

    C: What sorts of factors might the government look at, other than things the supplier himself might have said about consuming it?

    R: The nature and wording of the disclaimers on the web site, for starters, and the screening and ordering process. Let’s look at what a legitimate chemical supply house would do. A legitimate supply company would try to ensure the products are not being purchased for use as drugs, right? Some companies require an account to be set up and references checked, and will not sell to individuals. But the government might also look at where and to whom the products were being marketed, and the nature of the other products being sold on the site, in assessing the legitimacy of the “research” explanation. I’m not going to go through all the possible factors. You can figure them out, and so can the FDA if they’re so inclined. I’m not interested in giving the FDA a blueprint. They have their own lawyers to sort it out.

    C: But selling a research chemical with a host of vitamins on a bodybuilding web site might be one factor?

    R: Yes. In combination with other factors, hypothetically, that’s how the government could build a case.

    C: What about what other people say about the products? Could the government take into account the fact that the discussion boards are filled with postings about how people are using the products?

    R: Well, if one guy said in an obscure online forum somewhere that he consumed a liquid research chemical despite all the warnings and disclaimers, the supplier could hardly be expected to be aware of it, much less accountable for it. But it might be different if lots of people are talking all about it on the boards, particularly if the boards are associated or affiliated with the supplier.

    C: But isn’t it possible that the supplier may intend the product to be used for research purposes only, but individual purchasers may have other ideas?

    R: Quite possible.

    C: Then to what extent is the supplier responsible for the purchaser’s intentions?

    R: He’s not. He’s responsible for his own conduct and intent. But if he knows or has reason to know that the purchaser had these “other ideas,” it may reflect upon his own intent in supplying the product.

    C: Doesn’t the theory of “Don’t ask, don’t tell” offer some protection?

    R: Not necessarily, if the supplier is consciously avoiding the knowledge of his customers’ obvious uses of the products. You can reach a point where you can’t purposely stick your head in the sand like an ostrich to undermine proof of your knowledge of a fact. That kind of willful blindness doesn’t exempt you from prosecution.

    C: Okay, let’s assume the government doesn’t buy the claim that the chemical product is really intended for research purposes. Then what?

    R: Maybe nothing, I guess, but one option would be for the FDA to assert that the product violated the law regarding misbranded drugs under Title 21, Section 331. They could send out warning letters to suppliers, or just institute prosecutions.

    C: What’s a misbranded drug?

    R: Check out Section 352. A drug sold without adequate directions or warnings for safe consumption, for example, is deemed misbranded. Since these chemical products we’re discussing are supposedly for research only, they obviously bear no such directions or warnings.

    C: And if they were to be adequately labeled for human use, they’d no longer be arguably for research purposes only.

    R: Then they’d clearly be drugs and more easily prosecuted.

    C: Right. So, theoretically, what offenses could the government possibly hit a supplier with?

    R: If they were inclined to take action, the government could charge introducing misbranded drugs into interstate commerce under Sections 331(a) and 333(b). They could also charge conspiring to defraud the FDA in violation of Title 18 of the Code, Section 371, and/or with mail fraud in violation of Title 18, Section 1341.

    C: All right, what kind of penalties are we talking about?

    R: The penalties for misbranded drug violations are found in Section 333(a). Under 333(a)(1), neither knowledge nor intent is required for a misdemeanor violation. To make it a felony under 333(a)(2), the requisite additional element is just the intent to defraud or mislead, or having a previous similar conviction. The felony carries a maximum term of imprisonment of three years.

    C: What about conspiracy and mail fraud charges?

    R: Sure, look at the cases involving the illegal sales of DNP. Defendants got hit with the misbranded drug charges as well as conspiracy to commit mail fraud. The maximum imprisonment for conspiracy to commit mail fraud is five years.

    C: Do you think the FDA is presently aware of what’s going on?

    R: I’m almost positive that they are.

    C: What if the factors they need to make a case against most of these suppliers just aren’t there?

    R: Great question. If the government still thinks it’s all a sham, they could try to do specific sting operations, or find other ways to make life tough for these companies. If federal regulatory agencies really want to mess with you, they can usually find ways. And if the agencies find that under the existing law they can’t stop you from illegal conduct, they’ll consider issuing new regulations to help them or they’ll ask Congress to amend a law or pass a new one.

    C: Like what’s going on with prohormones right now.

    R: Yes, they’ve helped fuel the new bills attacking the supplement industry, particularly prohormones. A good place to learn about that issue is Even people who don’t use prohormones should be aware that their nutritional freedoms are under siege by the government.

    C: For sure. Rick, has anyone actually been prosecuted for research chemicals yet?

    R: Not that I know of – yet. In practice, the research chemical scenario presents a tougher challenge for the FDA than other misbranded drug cases. More typically, a product is sold for human use or administration and the issue is the adequacy of labels and such. But with research chemicals, the government must instead prove the threshold issue that the product is intended for human consumption – despite express warnings and disclaimers to the contrary.

    C: That’s not always easy to do. It’s more investigative work to do it, and a potentially bigger drain for an agency with budget and personnel limitations.

    R: That’s right.

    C: The DEA did it with butanediol, but maybe they felt it was worthwhile because they considered it to be an analogue of a dangerous claimed “date rape” drug.

    R: Maybe. It’s hard to say how the DEA prioritizes its resources. Look at what recently happened to actor Tommy Chong. He got popped in a major DEA sting operation orchestrated to catch people selling bongs over the Internet. At least 55 people were arrested. The prosecutions relied on a Supreme Court decision [Posters ‘N’ Things, Ltd., v. U.S., 511 U.S. 513 (1994)] recognizing, basically, that bongs are items that are specifically designed for use as drug paraphernalia – to smoke marijuana. Chong got hit with a nine-month federal sentence, despite the fact that his site had disclaimers saying the pipes were to be used only for smoking tobacco.

    C: Makes you wonder how a future court someday might view conversion kits.

    R: Well, yes, but that’s another story. Chong’s bongs may not be completely analogous, but what’s important, I think, is simply that Chong never imagined in his wildest dreams that the government would come after him, especially when he had disclaimers up on the site.

    C: He never saw it coming.

    R: Right. That’s the lesson. Which brings us back to research chemicals. Up until now, the FDA has chosen to set other priorities. That may continue indefinitely. Or it may change, possibly suddenly and without notice. I can’t give more conclusive answers at this time because these are uncharted waters. Until I possibly wind up arguing these issues in a court somewhere and getting definitive rulings, the best I can do is identify areas of concern and make educated speculations. But for now, I think there’s more risk than most people have thought about.

    C: I guess the more blatant the use as drugs of these products becomes, the more likely the FDA will try to get involved. At the same time, the more blatant the drug use of the products, the easier it might be for the FDA to prove its cases.

    R: Exactly. That’s definitely something to be concerned about.

    C: Thanks for the interview, Rick.

    R: Anytime. Knowledge is power, bro.

    © 2003. All rights reserved. No commercial reproduction without express written permission. For informational purposes only; not to be construed as legal advice.

    *Citruscide is the web name of a lawyer licensed to practice in Illinois. He has a background as a certified personal trainer and hardcore bodybuilder, and is a mod at the Elite Fitness Bodybuilding and the Law discussion board and at Chemical Muscle.

    [If you found this interview thought-provoking and informational, you'll love the definitive steroid treatise, LEGAL MUSCLE (available at]
  8. cunninglinguist

    cunninglinguist RAEPERQUICKING

    Oct 5, 2001
    Likes Received:
    you should make a similar post with ephedrine as well
  9. size18boarder

    size18boarder rhetorical OT Supporter

    Sep 22, 2003
    Likes Received:
    baltimore, md
    yeah you should. great post i have been wondering about clen lately.
  10. spoofy

    spoofy Chemically Enhanced

    Aug 21, 2001
    Likes Received:
    Ill do one on ephedrine and T3 fairly soon.
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