Clean power?

Discussion in 'OT Technology' started by Enigma, Oct 6, 2003.

  1. Enigma

    Enigma Guest

    ..for a home theater setup..

    Is it worth the $ or should I just stick with my basic Belkin power surge? The Best Buy guy I spoke to when buying my TV suggested I get one of the Monster power strips, which were like.. $149 and $199 for the ones that "clean" the power. I'm pretty noobish to this stuff and was just wondering if this was really something that I should spend $149-$199 on? Best Buy doesn't work off of commission and he really seemed to be pretty serious about how important buying one of those would be. Sooo.. I'm just trying to decide whether or not to drop the $150 on it or not.. the whole concept makes sense and I don't want my equipment to get owned later by "dirty" power, storms, or anything like that.

    thx in advance. :o
     
  2. 04

    04 Guest

    Belkin surge. Unless you have a problem, don't try to fix it IMO ;) In some cases the Monster with its variable stepup transformer might help if you have really bad power service, but if yours is fine, there isnt any reason to get one.

    And in my opinion, if you are really paranoid just go with a fulltime UPS, it would make a much better power cleaner if you ask me.
     
  3. Enigma

    Enigma Guest

    Well.. I had some stuff to do at BB earlier so I went ahead and got one before I read your post. So, I'll see how it works and see if I can tell a difference.. and if not, I'll take it back, then go ahead and hook up an extra UPS and use that instead. I didn't even really think of using a UPS. :doh: They guys at BB say you can tell a visual difference (audio as well) when running through the clean power as opposed to without it. So we'll see.. thx for the info and UPS idea. :hs:

    oh btw, do you happen to have an Avia CD? :x:
     
  4. 04

    04 Guest

    Well the BB guy was fibbing then. They make high profit margins on stuff like that. The video and audio differences *could* happen by introducing it, but I really doubt it. Your equipment was designed to work optimally with power from the wall without filtering or anything. Thats why I said that unless you have major power problems, it shouldnt be an issue.

    Sorry, I don't have an Avia disc.
     
  5. Specialist23

    Specialist23 OT Supporter

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    does clean power make a difference? honestly, it does very minimally for the product that you would purchase @ best buy. the hts2100 does a decent job @ around 199, but nothing that you're going to be just amazed by. now stages up from there, yes you will notice a difference. ESPECIALLY IN AUDIO. it's honestly pretty amazing how much better audio quality can be just by hooking it up to a hts 3600, 5100, 5100 ss, 7000, or 7000ss. think the link is monster.com if you're interested. prices are pretty high and not for everyone, but they do make a large difference.
     
  6. 04

    04 Guest

    I disagree. The unit's wont increase audible sound quality at all, UNLESS like I said before, your existing power service is TERRIBLE. In fact, I have seen some HIGH END (Bryston anyone?) amplifier manufacturers reccomend that plugging their amplifiers into a power cleaner is a bad idea, and with the amount of current they can pull at full draw, I can agree with that.
     
  7. 04

    04 Guest

    You clearly don't understand what the power supply does then if you think the noise passes through it. Your power supply filters out the noise of the line, it doesnt pass right through. If you take a linear power supply, consisting of a transformer, diodes and a filter capacitor bank, the transformer will first eliminate some of the noise present. Then the AC power is changed into DC using an array of four diodes. Last come some filter capacitors that filter out the remainder of the noise and ripple still present in the power supply. I am certainly not claiming to be an expert on the subject, but if you have noise in the system, either you have bad line conditions, or your amplifier or another component is a pile of shit. No if's or but's PERIOD.

    Bryston CLEARLY states that their amplifiers do not need to be plugged into a power conditioner: http://www.bryston.ca/pdfs/38b.pdf Page 2, and I quote:

    "All Bryston amplifiers contain high quality, dedicated circuitry in the power supplies to reject RF. line spikes and other power-line problems. Bryston power amplifiers do not require any specialized power line conditioners. "

    How do you think all of those fancy power conditioners filter noise? They use 1:1 ratio transformers, similar to what is in a linear power supply, only the winding ratio is not 1:1...
     
  8. 04

    04 Guest

    Hahaha, as usual putting words into my mouth. I never said there are no differences between amplifiers, just no magical sound quality differences. ;)

    I think a better test of your line sniffer idea would be to measure the DC output vs. noise of the power supply section of the amplifier instead.

    I hope you are joking when you say that you are going to get a pure 60hz sinewave with a power conditioner...

    I like your computer example though... No power conditioner on the input for the power supply of your pc, and i have a "unclean" 60hz service. Why is it that there is garbage in, but my PC uptime is over 30 days straight? Oh wait, the power supply filtered all the garbage out... ;)
     
  9. Enigma

    Enigma Guest

    damn.. making it even tougher. :hs:

    btw, I got the HTS1000 for $149, so those of you that support using these, do you think this one will make any difference? the ones you listed are quite a bit more than I would even think of spending. So is this particular one even worth spending the money on? Oh, I have to take it back and exchange it for another one anyway if I do decide to keep it cause the ground light is pushed down inside the strip and you can't see it. :mad:

    Thanks again, to all of ya.. I've learned a bit already. :hs:
     
  10. eighteen_psi

    eighteen_psi Active Member

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    I personally run my stereo and associated gear off of a 1000VA APC ups....(another is for my computer and what not). I set the voltage tolerance to the minimum (most agressive) setting and It'll kick in battery with my system up all the way on big bass hits...I dunno if its doing anything to clean up the power the rest of the time but I'd imagine its better than most any of the overpriced monster stuff. I've heard some wicked systems at headphone meets powered straight from the wall or on a cheep surge strip... (head amps are FAR FAR more sensitive to power noise than large power amps are)

    Some people swear by that stuff but I call BS. I'd never run my computer with out some serious UPSage and it certainly doesn't hurt the stereo but line conditioners and stuff....I'd have to see a scoped before and after sine to believe they do a better job than my UPS (and that either produces an audible difference most of the time). Some places have really crappy power tho... :dunno:
     
  11. Platinum_Thunder

    Platinum_Thunder Reliability for life and liberty

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    042801 and I just had a nice discussion...you should pick up a psychology book sometime ;)
     
  12. flynfrog

    flynfrog Cool isnt Cheap

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    just to throw my two cents into the shit storm yes power conditoners can help i have yet to see any where near power coming from a wall put it on a good scope some time.

    so yes the pwoer conditoner will help if you think that a power suply in an amp is going to clean every thing your just lying to your self if you think the power conditoner is going to fix every thing see above the differnce comes to what it audible

    "All Bryston amplifiers contain high quality, dedicated circuitry in the power supplies to reject RF. line spikes and other power-line problems. Bryston power amplifiers do not require any specialized power line conditioners. "

    hmm think cause maybe they have noise filters all over that damn thing

    such as

    The ONLY reason they might would be if it can't supply enough current which isn't a problem with any good design. If it's such a bad design then why do some manufactures like Mark Levinson and Halcro implement their own style of clean power into their amps?

    jesus you two half way agree the only differnce is in what you think is capable of being heard


    cliff notes pwoer conditer makes power better can you tell a diffencer depends
     
  13. Specialist23

    Specialist23 OT Supporter

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    it does make a difference. end of story. this is going to end up like the octane discussion. but in this case, there is a difference.
     
  14. 04

    04 Guest

    Of course there IS a difference. What is debatable is if it will actually do anything sound quality wise.
     
  15. 04

    04 Guest

    flynfrog, did you even read my posts? I said the power supply should take care of the AC noise. It does a great job of taking care of the noise for your computer, something that is much more critical to noise. And from the shitty construction of most computer power supplies when compared to amplifier power supplies, I don't see the problem...

    This argument falls into the category of "I can see a difference on an scope, therefore there must be a benefit". Like I said before, if you want a valid comparision, why don't you measure the amplifier after the power supply to see how much noise is present, instead of measuring it before? How do you know the power supply can't take care of the noise?

    You guys still are not understanding my point I suppose. The benifit of a power conditioner is that it has an ISOLATION TRANSFORMER, with a winding ratio of 1:1. The power supply of a amplifier has a STEPUP TRANSFORMER, which gets rid of the nosie THE SAME WAY as the isolation transformer does. The only difference is the winding ratios.

    Your cliffnotes are absolutely correct, but it doesnt matter when you have a similar device inside any amplifier that does the same thing. A power conditioner is only there for "redundancy". One easy way to see if you need a conditioner is that if you have NOISE in your system. If its there and putting a power conditioner in solves the problem, then it looks like one may be a good idea in your case. But if you think the treble gets smoother and the bass has more impact, you are only kidding yourself...

    You guys probably wont believe me, no matter what I say, because you think you have seen and heard a difference, but hey, its your money you are throwing down the drain on something overkill that you don't need. ;)
     
  16. flynfrog

    flynfrog Cool isnt Cheap

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    yes i did read your post and i will state it once agin no power supply will stop all noise its one of those exponetial decay things were it becoems a verry low number but esentaly zero. and have you seen a computer power supply on a scope? with the shitty power in our soalr car garage its terrible. no i havent stuck it on my amplifier power supply out put and i agree with you fully on how each product works and it can make an audible differnce and its much easier on equipment. Also rember that theroy and real life dont always agree with each other ;)
     
  17. 04

    04 Guest

    I agree that no power supply will stop all noise, but at what point does it make when you cant hear any noise in your system to begin with, and adding a conditioner, makes no audible improvement? If you have lots of money to spend, and absolutely must have the best, the I suppose going with a line conditioner would be fine. But in some cases, such as high powered amplifiers, it can be detrimental to the performance.

    No I havent seen a computer's power on a scope, but obviously its enough to keep a computer running smoothly. Are you talking about the incoming 120vac power or the output on one of the 12v,5v,3.3v,etc. DC rails?

    Yes theory and real life don't always agree with one another, and in that case, either the theory is wrong, or you are not taking into account some variables...
     
  18. flynfrog

    flynfrog Cool isnt Cheap

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    i had the scope on the 12 volt rails and the power supplies

    if you want a clean power on a large amp you need a large power cleaner then ti wont hurt preformnace ;)

    its all caos (sp?) its impossible to account for all varibles like butterflys
     
  19. 04

    04 Guest

    What kind of noise was on the 12vdc rail, and how much?

    That is true, you can buy units that have 3kva+ transformers in them, but I DOUBT the monster units have transformers that large.

    A butterfly doesnt have anything to do with an electrical circuit. But yes I see what you are getting at ;) But the specifications that do have any kind of effect can be measured. And an electrical system is not chaotic, at least not the ones we are dealing with in this example.
     
  20. BlazinBlazer Guy

    BlazinBlazer Guy Witness to The De-Evolution of Mankind.

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    I'll throw in my 2-cents worth. I have one of these Monster units (I think its the 1100 model?) for my HT stuff....

    during the blackout earlier this year, the surge fried the APC surge suppressor all my computer stuff is plugged into... but it didn't even make a dent in the monster unit. I got lucky that my components didn't get fried on the computer because the supressor they were in literally won't power anything anymore, I had to replace it... whereas the monster unit protected me with no problems.

    so I would say the monster unit is very worth it if you have relatively expensive components hooked up to it.
     
  21. 04

    04 Guest

    Was the APC surge protector and the Monster unit plugged into the same outlet? It could have been that the surge went through the computer equipment but not the APC :dunno:
     
  22. BlazinBlazer Guy

    BlazinBlazer Guy Witness to The De-Evolution of Mankind.

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    huh? the computer stuff was plugged into the APC (this was not a UPS, just a surge strip) in the basement... and the APC Surge Strip got fried. At the time the blackout occurred, I was watching TV and could see the monster unit's lights flash showing that a surge was going through it but that it didn't fry the unit.
     
  23. 04

    04 Guest

    No, I meant was the Monster and the APC plugged into the same wall outlet? It could have been that the lightning chose to follow the path of the surge protector, and not that of the Monster unit. Then again, the Monster unit may have had a better surge protector, we can't tell for sure. But if the Monster unit didnt even turn off, my guess would be that it was not hit nearly as bad as the power strip.
     
  24. BlazinBlazer Guy

    BlazinBlazer Guy Witness to The De-Evolution of Mankind.

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    well it did turn off, obviously... it was at the beginning of/during the blackout ;)

    but no the APC unit was in the basement and the monster strip was upstairs in the living room.
     
  25. Rocker_II

    Rocker_II K-Car pride

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    Good power strips are meant to stop working after a serious surge. They all have surge ratings(in joules) as to how much they can take before they will stop working. That number is additive, as in it will take 100J during one surge and maybe 300J another surge. It is sort of like a sponge. It will only take so much until it stops working at all. That way you will not be using a power strip that will not protect your equipment. It is possible that the Monster unit has a higher surge capacity than the other one, or it might not have the technology at all.
     

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